Resigning from ALPA

[TonyC]

If your carrier is ALPA and you decide to not participate you still pay dues, period. I am not supporting one side of this argument or the other but all alpa carriers pay 1.9%. Those that decide not to participate still get 1.9% deducted from their checks as part of the Agency Shop section of your cba. I just read the thread about having this section in your contract. There is not one alpa contract on the planet that does not have agency shop, ...

If you are on the seniority list and work under the agreed upon work rules then you pay, no exceptions.

False.


FedEx is one example. Union membership is not mandatory, and there is no agency shop.

 

[aridairbus]

In "right to work" states you do not have to join the union or pay dues, but you get the benfits of the contract that the union has with management (you get the same pay, benefits and retirement as the union members). ALPA will usually post a list of the pilots that are not in the union and don't pay dues and the pilots that are not in the union and do pay dues on their ALPA bullentin board.

OK, you people have to do some research before you post information on these boards.

Right to work has NO bearing on our profession since we work under the auspices of the RLA. Our labor laws are governed on a FEDERAL level, not state.

If you work at an airline with an agency shop and do not join the union, you do not pay dues, you pay shop fees.

Sleepy, stick to corporate questions.

 

[George Zip]

I guess ALPA should just snap their fingers and fix the fundamental economics of the entire industry. Better yet, since we're all so smart, why don't we just buy our own airline and then if we're losing billions because there are more seats available than there is demand to fill them we'll just continue to pay the help because it's the right thing to do. You really do have that option - go out and start your own d*mn airline so you can run it as you see fit.

This guy is very frustrated, but not very smart....and he's taking out his frustration on the easiest target. If the weather is down at your desitnation, divert to your alternate. If you don't like the way the industry is moving relative to your employment, research your options and work toward them. This can be an awesome career, but unionized labor is the only group that I have ever seen that constantly chants "it's raining like hell - somebody must turn off the rain !! we're not willing to move where it is not raining and we're getting wet !!" We can and should be united in our negotiations and for each other.... but I think the vast majority of pilots are simply delusional when it comes to the limits of what that accompishes. It cannot change fundamental industry conditions. If we had a system wide SOS, maybe it would force a final shakeout and the 60% or so of airlines left operating would be more stable. Your tune would change dramatically if you were one of the 40% (as this guy would be).

It is what it is. Noone owes you. WHen there are less of us than the airlines need, they will play according to our terms. Right now (and almost always) there are more of us than they need. Make your move accordingly and stop whining.

I'm about to get furloughed and it sucks. I have worked hard and have lined up other options (not all in aviation). You know what? My company made some bad decisions and some bad moves. I guess somebody should pay !!! Somebody should make it all better! Nobody guaranteed me this would be all peaches and cream. Guarantees? Death and Taxes.

Good luck to all.

 

[FoxHunter]

There is not one alpa contract on the planet that does not have agency shop, and you should see the look on the company's attorney's face when agency shop is mentioned.

If you are on the seniority list and work under the agreed upon work rules then you pay, no exceptions.

Sorry, the ALPA Contract at FedEx has no Agency Shop. If a pilot is a Non-Member he or she pays No dues.

 

[TWA Dude]

To paraphrase Churchill, ALPA is the worst union out there -- except for all the rest. Believe me that I'm the last guy around to defend ALPA (after all I'm part of a class-action suing them) yet I recognize the reality that it's one of the few weapons that exist for pilots. Resigning will make you feel better but it won't have any effect. As others have mentioned, speaking-up and/or running for office will have the greatest effect to improve our lot.

 

[Clyde]

The best thing to do is to start up your own in-house union. We have one and I wouldn't trade it in for anything. My union only deals with one airline and therefore is able to devote 100% of it's time and effort with one company with only our interests involved. I feel my union dues are well spent.

 

[CaptBud330]

Dues paying non-member

If you resign from ALPO, you pay what is known as "germane" dues. The member dues is 1.95% of you r gross. If you resign, you pay a reduced amount of between 1.55% to approximately 1.65% depending how much ALPO can inflate their bloated budget.
The disadvantages of resigning from ALPO are few. You still get the nifty magazine (gag), and ALPO still has to represent you if you take an excursion from the white lights. You probably won't get the "crack" ALPO lawyers ALPO is known for. You'll probably get Guido the office boy representing you. You still have access to ALPO aeromedical. Best of all, you have the satisfaction of kinowing you aren't paying those obsene salaries of Duane Weorthless and others.
BTW, did you know ALPO has a condo in Vail? How many of you out there were ever invited to even time share it?. Did you know the office manager at ALPO headquarters overseeing a staff of 200, makes more the the mayor of San Antonio? Why does Weorthless have a driver that makes more the a pilot for Mid Atlantic? Write to ALPO and ask for a copy of the budget. You would be amazed at all the things you pay for with your hard earned dues. Answer these questions and then tell me why you would still want to be a member of this union.

 

[Clyde]

If you resign from ALPO, you pay what is known as "germane" dues. The member dues is 1.95% of you r gross. If you resign, you pay a reduced amount of between 1.55% to approximately 1.65% depending how much ALPO can inflate their bloated budget.
The disadvantages of resigning from ALPO are few. You still get the nifty magazine (gag), and ALPO still has to represent you if you take an excursion from the white lights. You probably won't get the "crack" ALPO lawyers ALPO is known for. You'll probably get Guido the office boy representing you. You still have access to ALPO aeromedical. Best of all, you have the satisfaction of kinowing you aren't paying those obsene salaries of Duane Weorthless and others.
BTW, did you know ALPO has a condo in Vail? How many of you out there were ever invited to even time share it?. Did you know the office manager at ALPO headquarters overseeing a staff of 200, makes more the the mayor of San Antonio? Why does Weorthless have a driver that makes more the a pilot for Mid Atlantic? Write to ALPO and ask for a copy of the budget. You would be amazed at all the things you pay for with your hard earned dues. Answer these questions and then tell me why you would still want to be a member of this union.

This comment is not intended as a slam, but as a further follow-up to my above post.

This is another good reason why a large union representing many airlines does not work. Too many interests and too many politics. Again, my union is independent, and we are very much able to police our own. Our elected officials can and still do fly trips out on the line. Our union headquarters are easily accessible to anyone who is in town or transiting. The communication from officials to members is very good in both directions. And, from personal experience, when you interact with a committee, whether it be for official business or you are working on one, you don't feel like another number.

Regardless of how much a driver would be paid, there is no way our President would get away with that here. And the condo? No way. Guarantee that would have been blown out of the water a long time ago.

Now, I'm not saying our union is the perfect, text-book model union, but I prefer them to represent me over ALPA any day!! Again, I feel my union dues are very well spent.

 

[wildcat]

At the risk of some Union goon breaking my kneecaps...

Yes, you are governed by the RLA, which means you can opt out of ALPA, but you still have to pay.

However, you can request an exemption and have your monies sent to the charity of your choice. The National Right to Work can help you with this.

Good luck.

http://www.nrtw.org/

 

[slowto250]

Bring us his head

"My MEC has gone so far as to make an Eastern scab the head of one of the committees. It was at that point that I realized what ALPA has become."

Anon,
Just read your post, and find it incredible. Pleeeeeez publish his name for all to see. If you feel uneasy with this, PM me and I will publish it.

If true, this just reinforces what I have suspected for a long time. That although we refer to it as a union, ALPA is nothing more than an association, as it's name would indicate. No teeth. Would the last one to leave the offices in Herndon
please turn out the lights ? Are you listening Duane ?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The best thing to do is to start up your own in-house union. We have one and I wouldn't trade it in for anything. My union only deals with one airline and therefore is able to devote 100% of it's time and effort with one company with only our interests involved. I feel my union dues are well spent.

How much does your union contribute to industry safety? ALPA's saferty and engineering dept is recognized and respected Worldwide! The AMR and SWAPA pilots buy the services of ALPA's economic and financial analysis dept. Does your union use ALPA contracts to negotiate with your company? (who doesn't, but I'm sure ALPA uses yours as well) Do your union leaders have the audience of the National politicians, where the perameters of our careers are controlled? I'm not saying your in house union is bad, but neither is ALPA, and ALPA contributes worlwide to the aviation industry.

It's great that this education is coming out.... here is more......

Shortly after Dave Behncke formed ALPA he came to the realization that his new union would go nowhere, and accomplish nothing, if he did not get the union involved in national politics. That tenet is even more true in today's world. There is nothing we do as pilots or as a union that is not in some way controlled, regulated or mandated by the federal government. In a globalized inter-dependant world, ALPA has a great many problems that cannot be resolved without the cooperation and commitment of others, and a great many interests that require the help of others to maximize our potential.



Over the years ALPA has accepted that reality, and developed a very effective Government Affairs Department. With full-time staff and facilities in Washington, DC and in Ottawa, QC this department has matured into one of the most productive departments in ALPA in terms of public accomplishments.



As a recognition of the need to become intimately involved in the political arena, the Association formed ALPA-PAC.ALPA-PAC has enabled our union to be a real player in the legislative arena in Washington. We must recognize that participation in the PAC is more important now than ever before. What we have learned as a union is that we must be proactive in our efforts with governments and this is precisely what the PAC allows us to accomplish.

This is why ALPA doesn't do SOS!!! Honey not vinegar!

With a second-term President, the chances of passing legislation detrimental to collective bargaining are greatly enhanced. Below are just a few examples of the damage that might be inflicted in this event.



The McCain-Lott “Baseball-Style Arbitration Bill” is a good starting point. This bill, had it been enacted, would have gutted the provisions of the Railway Labor Act that give labor a fighting chance to obtain a true, collectively bargained agreement. The rules in this legislation were heavily tilted in management's favor even during the bargaining phase, and the only negotiating tactic management needed under the provisions the bill contained was the patience to wait for the arbitrator to make a ruling within the narrow confines outlined by the proposed legislation. This bill was defeated through the efforts of labor, we have not seen the last of this effort or others like it, especially if there is a Republican victory in November.



Another issue on the horizon is appointments to several political positions that will directly affect pilots. Few, if any, political appointments are as important to ALPA as the Secretary of Transportation. This key position determines how well ALPA can effect timely solutions to problems, and our ability to effectively and efficiently interface with the key government agency that controls our jobs as pilots. Enforcement of the Whitlow Letter is one positive example of this premise. Along those lines, we have been waiting for years for the FAA Administrator's office to propose another major regulation—new rules on flight and duty time. We must ask, what kind of rules can we expect from a new Secretary and Administrator who are not a friends of ALPA, and with the Administrator appointed by the current administration?



There are other transportation-related appointments and regulations that are certain to arise in the next few years. It must also be emphasized that the members of the National Mediation Board, the National Transportation Safety Board, and the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation are all appointed by the President. Cabotage, additional security taxes, pension reform, the Civil Reserve Aircraft Fleet (CRAF) and foreign ownership, and true collective bargaining rights—our full rights, including the right to strike—to name only a few, are at stake this in this election. These are matters of substantial concern for our members.

An issue previously discussed in this report was the financial condition of the industry. Dovetailing with this discussion it is appropriate to point out how industry finances and project funding are affected by the political system. A look at the current state of affairs with the U.S. government's budget crisis underscores this point. For example, at the outset of this crisis Congress "did the right thing" in appropriating grants and loan guarantees to the industry via the Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act. However, this much-needed loan guarantee provision was held hostage by making the provisions to obtain a loan guarantee so onerous as to make them unavailable. Only $1.56 billion out of the $10 billion, or less than 16% of Congress’ intent was executed by the Bush administration. Furthermore, the President is seeking an additional $435 million security taxes to be added to airline tickets. Politics, taxes and fees, and the financial health of the industry are completely intertwined.

As was previously mentioned in this report, the airline industry relies on the air traffic infrastructure to operate both safely and profitably. Everything involving federal budgets is totally political. No industry has more at stake financially that rests entirely on political decisions. No profession has more at stake than airline pilots.



2003 ALPA-PAC PARTICIPATION BY AIRLINE





Delta 31%

United 31

Astar 27

Northwest 27

Alaska 20

Aloha 20

ALPA 18

FedEx 18

Mesa Air Group 16

Hawaiian 14

Continental/Continental Express 11

US Airways 10

Mesaba 9

ATA 8

Midwest 8

Aloha Island Air 6

Atlantic Coast 5

Spirit 5

Allegheny 4

American Eagle 3

American West 3

Pinnacle 3

Polar Air Cargo 3

Skyway 3

Atlantic Southeast 2

Atlas Air 2

Champion 2

Comair 2

PSA 2

Ryan 2

Air Wisconsin 1

Piedmont 1

Trans States 1



The following airlines had one contribution: Gemini, Midway, and Ross



Guys, ALPA PAC and its effectiveness is greatly influenced from above. If you can't stand the fact that you should give more money in addition to your dues, then you've been missing a major piece of the puzzle for a long time. If you want to effect your career you've got to play on CapHill.....

Finally, recognizing the MESA guys and thier PAC contributions.... They got it right....

Good Luck....

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am certainly understand the writer's resignation letter. ALPA is full of empty political rhetoric about "unity," while at the same time promoting alter ego airline entities which are created for the express purpose of undermining scope and forcing ALPA members to compete against other ALPA members in the race for the bottom.

The votes to change ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy, the removal of "operational integration" and the lack of any national leadership have turned this union into disenfranchised mobs engaged in looting eachother after the tragedy of September 11th. ALPA National has done nothing to stop the trend. In fact they have simply tried to align themselves with who they percieve to be the most powerful mob, encouraging the predatory behavior.

Brand scope is simply the same old way of doing business since the mid nineties. Non-preferred ALPA members are still excluded from the bargaining table and left with no enforceable scope. ALPA National is quick to endorse any deals that take flying away from these "non-preferred" pilots.

But, the failed policy has the grass roots effect of undermining the entire industry. There is a reason why the frustrated US Air pilot is making as much a $10 an hour less to fly an E170 than a 5 year ASA RJ Captain - it is because ALPA national endorsed the deal.

I am not yet to the point of advocating decertification of ALPA, but if the RJDC is not successful in saving this union, then we must decertify it and go our own way.

~~~^~~~

 

[Dodge]

It is nice to see that Mesa and Mesaba contibuted as much or more than some of the "large jet operators" out there. Too bad they didn't get much for their money with their contracts.

Look guys and girls, ALPA is a business. They need dues. Why do you think that all the former scabs were welcomed back into ALPA's good graces? They want their money, of course. If some of the pilots don't like the direction that ALPA is taking their pay, retirement, profession, etc....try to get into the ALPA business. The ALPA big wigs seem to make out just fine, even though the pilots of the airlines that they represent are watching everything being striped from them. Being a pilot is not the way to make the best living in the airlines.

 

[~~~^~~~]

"My MEC has gone so far as to make an Eastern scab the head of one of the committees. It was at that point that I realized what ALPA has become."

Apparently you missed the pictures of Duane Woerth welcoming the Continental Scabs ( who broke ALPA and supported Lorenzo on the CAL property ) with cake and party favors. Those scabs, in every sense of the word, were welcomed back into ALPA without one cent of back dues.

The former Eastern Scab was the subject of a good portion of an LEC meeting in ATL. On a local level the MEC and LEC are always in need of good volunteers. The local volunteers are really the unsung heros of ALPA who are there when you need them and give up their precious days off to assist line pilots when the chips are down.

People learn from their mistakes & the better man goes on to make amends. ALPA can not claim the moral high ground on this issue anymore when Duane Woerth is having cake and ice cream with CAL scabs. I hold the President of our Union to a higher standard than a volunteer committee chair.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

It is nice to see that Mesa and Mesaba contibuted as much or more than some of the "large jet operators" out there. Too bad they didn't get much for their money with their contracts.

Look guys and girls, ALPA is a business. They need dues. Why do you think that all the former scabs were welcomed back into ALPA's good graces?

Yes, but there is a bigger reason you overlooked... V O T E S.

Those CAL scabs will now vote against the members in good standing at ASA, Comair, Mesa, Mesaba and the others like us who are "small jet lift providers" with no code and no brand.

In the old ALPA, you had to merge with another carrier before your name got painted on the side of their airplane. In the new ALPA you just lock them out of the negotiating table and take what you want from their operation.

ALPA apartied figures by diluting the votes of the non preferred members they can keep them in the fields and keep the masters in the big house.

~~~^~~~

 

[sleepy]

It all depends if the airline you work for has an "Agency Shop" clause in the contract. If there is Agency Shop and you quit, you have to pay a service fee that is about equal to the dues. If you do not pay up, ALPA will notify the company, and they will be required to fire you. It is my understanding right to work laws in individual States do not protect you from being fired. If there is no such clause in your airline contract, you can quit and not pay any sort of service fee. At FedEx this is the case.

You are correct. Also, pilots that were employed by the airline prior to the union do not have to join or pay.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The resolutions to allow scabs back into ALPA goes something like this....

Members in good standing of current in house unions will be accepted into ALPA...

We all do this in the many decsions we make daily. Heck, when you buy a car, you accept some features you don't like cause you look at the total package....

I wouldn't say ALPA wants scab dues money, but rather the dues money of all the non scabs which is much much more.... You're looking at it from the other side....

In order to get an in house union like CAL or FedEx Pilots Association (back) into ALPA they take the whole group for better or worse. Not saying it is right or wrong.... just saying it is politics.....

I'm not advocating scabs..... just offering a view point.....

 

[TonyC]

Also, pilots that were employed by the airline prior to the union do not have to join or pay.

Also FALSE.

 

[FoxHunter]

http://www.pilotpensiondefense.org/Documents/ALPA%20Officer%20Compensation.htm

Some of the highlights of DWs package.

$412,728 pay per year

Monthly Allowances: Housing $4,500, Meals $1,500, Travel and Incidental $1,500
New Lincoln LS every two years, Taxes, Tags, Insurance, Maintenance are paid by ALPA. Fuel is also paid for if used on ALPA business.

Retirement for 8 years as President $149,000+. Plus he keeps his airline pension.

How is this justified? The only reason I became aware is that someone posted the link on the ALPA Web board. Seems to me that the National leadership has charted a course of total failure, and it is just a matter of time that ALPA will be history. Talking to fellow FedEx pilots I know that most voted to merge FPA with ALPA because of their high expectations. The good news FedEx pilots will soon be the highest paid ALPA pilots, the bad news is that this may result in a 10% pay cut when we sign the next contract.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

http://www.pilotpensiondefense.org/Documents/ALPA%20Officer%20Compensation.htm

Some of the highlights of DWs package.

$412,728 pay per year

Monthly Allowances: Housing $4,500, Meals $1,500, Travel and Incidental $1,500
New Lincoln LS every two years, Taxes, Tags, Insurance, Maintenance are paid by ALPA. Fuel is also paid for if used on ALPA business.

Retirement for 8 years as President $149,000+. Plus he keeps his airline pension.

How is this justified? The only reason I became aware is that someone posted the link on the ALPA Web board. Seems to me that the National leadership has charted a course of total failure, and it is just a matter of time that ALPA will be history. Talking to fellow FedEx pilots I know that most voted to merge FPA with ALPA because of their high expectations. The good news FedEx pilots will soon be the highest paid ALPA pilots, the bad news is that this may result in a 10% pay cut when we sign the next contract.

How is this justified? Hmmm gee I don't know, maybe the ALPA delgates that YOU elected, voted for it. After all, it is a democratic document. A resolution, if I may.

So, if ALPA officers' pay is voted in maybe it could be voted out. Can ya do it! can ya organize a drive to change the compensation. Do you know where to start? (hint, it's called a LEC meeting, where traditionally, only 15% of you show up. Also, if a majority of the 15% show up with radical agenda they can speak for your entire pilot group. Imagine 150 pilots speaking for 1000!)

Also, I find it interesting that this only becomes an issue when someone rallies the message board crews. I mean where was the opposition when it was enacted? Oh yeah, that was in 2002, when everyone still had hopes an dream of making a similiar salary at UAL and DAL. What timing. UAL MEC approves a chilling TA and all of sudden the Nat'l officers salaries are inapproriate.

I'm not defending the salaries, but then again, I don't think the National Officers have 15+ days off a month like a UAL/DAL/NWA widebody Capt. And when something happens on the weekends after they gave five 10 h days, they go. In addition, while every ALPA pilot can fly a jet, not every ALPA pilot can address Congress and Cabinet memebers skillfully and effectively.

You have some valid points but again, get educated and quit reacting.....