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Republic to operate 190s for Delta...

Avi8tor2000

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...just give it about a year. Read the writing on the wall on this one. That wil truly be the end. 717s out. E190s in. Midwest anounces expanded codeshare with Delta. DC9s out. "Midwest" E190s in. Scope protects against contract carriers. It does nothing to protect against codeshares in this sense.

All three management teams (RP, YX, and DL) are setting this up slowly, methodically, and perfectly. No bueno for anybody (besides the millionaires...).
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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I'd be willing to bet against this. There are still the idiots around that don't understand scope, but the dynamic of the group has changed with all the newhires and the NWA merger.

Just look at the quick response to the attempted RAH 175AR modification.
 

Avi8tor2000

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Understood. But what if they bypass the scope relief issue altogether? Aka...an E190 operated as Republic Airlines (or Midwest) in the Delta system as an independent airline? (Maybe even a Delta painted tail for good measure.) Much the same as you can buy a ticket on US Airways and find yourself on a United flight.
 

General Lee

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Understood. But what if they bypass the scope relief issue altogether? Aka...an E190 operated as Republic Airlines (or Midwest) in the Delta system as an independent airline? (Maybe even a Delta painted tail for good measure.) Much the same as you can buy a ticket on US Airways and find yourself on a United flight.

Ummmmm, no. The only reason we gave it up to 76 seats (from 70) was because we were in BK and the judge was watching. We now have more cash on hand than anyone else. Our current scope does not allow any codeshares with anyone else that isn't approved by Dalpa. Very very unlikely. Notice the E190 flights at Midwest are NOT going to have DL codeshare flight numbers. You can try to think they might, but that would be wrong.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

Quack

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Pandora's box just got opened with Repub. starting to fly the 190's. another step in the downward spiral of this godforsaken industry...
 

General Lee

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Pandora's box just got opened with Repub. starting to fly the 190's. another step in the downward spiral of this godforsaken industry...

Indy Air was a regional initially, and got A319s. How did they do when they went independent on their own? Not good. The legacies and everyone else pounded them. Republic can try to find airlines to fly their E190s for, but most have scope clauses to prevent that. Midwest is so weak, that it worked out for them. Their own 717s will all be gone within a year, so there won't be any Midwest pilots left to protest. I see limited opportunities for their E190s. If there were more opportunities out there, I would think SkyWest and a few others would have tried by now.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

Quack

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Ummmmm, no. The only reason we gave it up to 76 seats (from 70) was because we were in BK and the judge was watching. We now have more cash on hand than anyone else. Our current scope does not allow any codeshares with anyone else that isn't approved by Dalpa. Very very unlikely. Notice the E190 flights at Midwest are NOT going to have DL codeshare flight numbers. You can try to think they might, but that would be wrong.


Bye Bye--General Lee


General while I don't doubt that repub won't be flying 190's under the delta codeshare, it's one more bargaining chip in mgmts pocket when negotiations come around again. i'm still waiting to see any benefits from Prater's slogan "Takin It Back." What he meant to say was "Takin It In The A$$"
 

General Lee

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General while I don't doubt that repub won't be flying 190's under the delta codeshare, it's one more bargaining chip in mgmts pocket when negotiations come around again. i'm still waiting to see any benefits from Prater's slogan "Takin It Back." What he meant to say was "Takin It In The A$$"

So, times will ALWAYS be bad according to you? We don't ever have any leverage? The next bargaining time looks like it could be an upturn, with the recession over and passenger numbers climbing. Also, doubtful the majority of current members would give E190s to the company. Most of the older guys will be leaving, and the rest have been through this before, watching the domestic flying get eroded by RJs. Unlikely at best.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

i fly boxes

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General, isnt the codeshare with midwest already established. I agree with the i]original poster, this is scary stuff.
 

flyboyike

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So, times will ALWAYS be bad according to you? We don't ever have any leverage?

If history is any indication, then I'm afraid yes. Mostly because I don't see where all this "leverage" is supposed to come from. And believe me, the thought does NOT make me happy.

I too doubt that those -190s will be flown for Delta, but I also doubt RAH got them just for the iffy Midwest operation, so I think they will be flown for somebody. Doesn't really matter who, this is bad news no matter how you cut it.
 

General Lee

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General, isnt the codeshare with midwest already established. I agree with the i]original poster, this is scary stuff.

The codeshare involves Midwest ONLY flying to MKE from ATL. They will NOT fly the E190s for DL throughout any part of the DL system. Also, they will use those E190s on routes from MKE to LA and SFO--stuff the 717s can't fly nonstop.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 

lookin4better

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Im sure plenty of little boys will be falling all over themselves to do it though.... doubt its gonna happen, lets hope it doesnt. DAL pilots will put their foot down on this one..... you can count on it.
 

SpauldingSmails

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I think you'd see some sort of mutiny among DAL MEC members if it happened.
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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Yep... the 76 seaters and other scope crap was given up during the vice grip of bankruptcy (management gets what management wants in bk, and you can't even strike)

They have no such leverage now.
 

michael707767

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DAL pilots will put their foot down on this one..... you can count on it.

Want to bet? With the current MEC leadership, nothing would surprise me. They could be sitting around right now figuring what kind of pay raises they can get for the widebody captains in return for giving up the 100 seaters.
 

ACL65PILOT

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Want to bet? With the current MEC leadership, nothing would surprise me. They could be sitting around right now figuring what kind of pay raises they can get for the widebody captains in return for giving up the 100 seaters.


Sad but true.
That happens and it is time to leave this industry.

I write my reps weekly. They better get the message. If not, we will have more than a mutiny on our hands.
 

General Lee

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Sad but true.
That happens and it is time to leave this industry.

I write my reps weekly. They better get the message. If not, we will have more than a mutiny on our hands.


I don't think that is accurate. Sure, there are guys at the top that think only about themselves, but they were the guys not really affected during 9-11 and after. A lot of them are gone now, and the remaining ones are dwindling. A lot more of the DL pilots are not ex military also, meaning they know what we are dealing with. If the MEC continues to show it's lack of understanding of the RJ issue with respect to our members, then more than likely all the new reps will be ex NWA militant types, which is what we actually need right now. I don't forsee the 100 seater going to the likes of Comair or ASA without a big fight.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

Superpilot92

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http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/05/28/327092/us-pilot-scope-here-to-stay.html

US pilot scope: Here to stay?
By Lori Ranson
[URL="http://view.atdmt.com/MDG/view/150636457/direct/01/62449414/"]http://view.atdmt.com/MDG/view/15063...t/01/62449414/[/URL][URL="http://view.atdmt.com/MDG/view/150636457/direct/01/62449414/"]http://view.atdmt.com/MDG/view/15063...t/01/62449414/[/URL]

While the economics of operating 50-seat jets has put those aircraft at a disadvantage to larger 70 and 90-seat aircraft, the fundamentals of their emergence late in the last decade remain intact: namely US pilot scope clauses.
Scope caps the number of regional jets operated by carriers on behalf of their partners, and also limits the number of seats per aircraft. United, Delta, Northwest and US Airways all got some relief on the 50-seat cap during their respective stints in Chapter 11 during the early 2000s. But American and Continental are still largely constrained to operating 50-seat aircraft.
As Bombardier works to secure orders for its 100-seat CRJ1000 and CSeries aircraft and Embraer’s orderbook tilts towards the larger end of its 170/190 E-Jet family, it appears that aircraft with roughly 76-to 86-seats are becoming the new dividing point between regional and mainline aircraft. A few regional carriers operate aircraft in the 86-seat range, but most of the larger regional jets are constrained to the 76-seat category.

Some airline executives are taking a sober view of any further loosening of scope restrictions as Delta Connection senior vice president Don Bornhorst recently told Regional Airline Association convention attendees he was not optimistic about scope relief for Delta or the industry. He predicts the CSeries and E-195 are destined to become mainline aircraft.
United seems less cynical than Delta as it begins contract talks with its pilots. Through its four-year restructuring that ended in 2006 United ultimately struck a deal with pilots that currently allows for an unlimited number of 70-seat jets with an 80,000lb weight limit. Certain limitations are associated with that somewhat unfettered access including fewer regional block hours than mainline. There are also some restrictions on nonstop 70-plus seat operations between United hubs and specific larger markets such as New York and Washington, DC, unless those operations are cost-effective, according to data from F&H Solutions Group.
Carrier vice president operations and planning for United Express Cindy Szadokierski told convention attendees that in current pilot contract talks “obviously scope is an issue we need to work our way through. In this environment with capacity reductions we see opportunities on both sides to move forward and meet both our needs”.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...x?ItemID=29200

While acknowledging the challenge of predicting with any clarity the outcome of those labour talks Bombardier Commercial Aircraft president Gary Scott does offer that he “has no doubt majors would like to increase the number and size of aircraft they operate in those [regional environments]. Both small CSeries and larger CRJs would fill the requirement should scope be relaxed”.
But mainline pilot resistance to scope remains steadfast as evidenced by the roughly 32-month long contract talks between American Airlines and its pilots.
Seeking to get on a level footing with its US mainline counterparts American aims to secure relief to operate 76-seat jets with a maximum takeoff weight of 89,000lbs. In a recent round of negotiations with pilots American management compared the 25 single-class CRJ700s flown by its subsidiary American Eagle to 209 larger 70-plus seat regional jets flown by Delta Connection carriers, with 149 of those aircraft featuring a two-class configuration. United, says American, operates 112 larger regional jets configured with a two-class offering.
American pilots scoffed at the presentation, dismissing it as a “pitch for APA [the Allied Pilots Association] to allow a scope exception permitting Eagle to fly a 76-seat Embraer in a two-class configuration”.
The reaction by American pilots appears to be consistent with a theory posed by industry analyst Michael Boyd to attendees at the RAA convention that US pilots are “adamant” of not letting go of scope and “not loosening those strings”.
 

lookin4better

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Want to bet? With the current MEC leadership, nothing would surprise me. They could be sitting around right now figuring what kind of pay raises they can get for the widebody captains in return for giving up the 100 seaters.


Lets hope not... it will be a large nail in the coffin of many careers.
 

ACL65PILOT

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I don't think that is accurate. Sure, there are guys at the top that think only about themselves, but they were the guys not really affected during 9-11 and after. A lot of them are gone now, and the remaining ones are dwindling. A lot more of the DL pilots are not ex military also, meaning they know what we are dealing with. If the MEC continues to show it's lack of understanding of the RJ issue with respect to our members, then more than likely all the new reps will be ex NWA militant types, which is what we actually need right now. I don't forsee the 100 seater going to the likes of Comair or ASA without a big fight.


Bye Bye--General Lee


That was the point General.
They wanted feedback about scope and CPS. They are getting it.
I agree, but we still have a lot of guys in the top 40% or so that feel cheated and will take whatever they can get out of the remainder of their career. I have flown with a few of them. They have flat out told me that they will vote for any pay raise, even if it means giving up more scope. They apologize but tell me they have given up too much pay to worry about planes they will never have to fly.
It is sad but true. Like I tell them, I am glad they only have one vote.
I do agree that we will be a much different group once we all intermingle. (IMHO for the better)
 
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