Republic first regional to create B-scale??

[cale42]

It is possible to hit a new low in the regionals? I think yes, with the creation of the first regional B-scale.. and not even negotiated.

RAH is expecting that with the move of the Lynx Q400's to the Republic(YX) certificate that the airplanes will be operated for the current sub standard Lynx rates. This is in direct violation of the RAH CBA which states

"Nothing set forth in this Article shall prevent the Company from introducing
a new aircraft type into revenue service before agreement is reached over
the rates applicable to that aircraft, as long as the pay rates assigned to
such aircraft type are not less than the rates provided by this Article or the
principal Agreement for aircraft with similar power plant (turboprop or jet)
and seat range that either includes the number of seats in the new aircraft
type or has a seat range not greater than the number seats in the disputed
aircraft. If the aircraft is smaller (less seats) than any other aircraft for
which pay scales have been established by this Agreement then, subject
to the provisions of this article, the Company will establish a rate for the
new aircraft until a negotiated rate has been agreed to by the parties. The
negotiated rate will be retroactive to the implementation of the new aircraft
type.
21.1"


Notice it specifically says a turboprop must be paid based on the number of seats at the same rate as an equivalent seat jet.

This is crystal clear and yet the company appears unwilling to honor this.

So who should be the most concerned, IBT who if they allow this will lower the bar for entering negotiations? FAPA who is getting a snapshot of what to expect.. or the lowly Lynx pilots who appeared to take it yet again.

Discuss... please.

cale

 

[GuppyWN]

It sounds like a re-opener to me. The RAH pilots signed their contract to fly RAH airplanes. The 400's are new airframes to them.

What happens to the Lynx pilots if the SLI has not been announced?

From your post it sounds like RAH is bound to negotiate new rates for the 400's and retro the money.

Assuming it's for more that is.

Gup

 

[CX880]

who says the company is unwilling to honor it?

 

[cale42]

Gup,

The current plan is that any Lynx pilot that want's to continue flying the airplanes will become an RAH employee on the same day that the Lynx certificate ceases to exist. Thus you still have RAH employees flying RAH planes. We will be the 25(ish) most junior pilots but will be fenced from everyone else. You are correct that in theory they will negotiate new rates and there will be retro pay, but the CBA is quite clear that in the interim current "equivalent seat" rates must apply. The rates they are saying will be paid are $10-$20/hr less than the contract rates.

CX... I am, because what I posted above is what is being offered. Lynx pilot can become RAH pilots on this new B-scale.

 

[GuppyWN]

Cale,

RAH management cannot pick and choose which parts of the contract they want to abide by.

I know you're pissed and I think The Preacher will probably push on this one but you MUST be willing to grieve and arbitrate an infraction of your CBA.

Just be patient and be willing to drop the hammer. He might surprise you and come to you guys for a re-opener. One thing I'd sure keep an eye on is the SLI. Once the arbitrator rules there is a chance you may be eligible for retro benefits of some sort since you are being stapled without care of DOH or any sort of integration. I'm VERY interested in this staple. Our union is telling us that a staple is not an option yet The Preacher is doing just that to you guys.

Let me know please.
Gup

 

[cale42]

Cale,

RAH management cannot pick and choose which parts of the contract they want to abide by.

I know you're pissed and I think The Preacher will probably push on this one but you MUST be willing to grieve and arbitrate an infraction of your CBA.

Just be patient and be willing to drop the hammer. He might surprise you and come to you guys for a re-opener. One thing I'd sure keep an eye on is the SLI. Once the arbitrator rules there is a chance you may be eligible for retro benefits of some sort since you are being stapled without care of DOH or any sort of integration. I'm VERY interested in this staple. Our union is telling us that a staple is not an option yet The Preacher is doing just that to you guys.

Let me know please.
Gup

Two things. First, they will in fact pick and choose which parts to abide by, knowing fully that the grievance and arbitration process will take years. Sadly at the regional FO level we are talking the difference between poverty line and not. Many people can't grieve and wait and still put food on the table.

Second we are not talking a staple We are talking Lynx pilots would all be fenced newhires until the SLI is complete, at which point they will assume whatever seniority the arbitrator deems fair.

The timing here will be very critical too, no one knows if the transfer of certificates will be finalized before the SLI is published, I suspect that will have a yet to be seen impact on the whole deal.

Lastly it is an exceptionally awkward situation, because as Lynx guys we are the ones most affected, but until the certificate transfer is complete we are represented by UTU, not IBT, and it is IBT's contract who is being violated.

cale

 

[Popeye0537]

FYI Jet Blew was the first regional to offer a B scale.

Your FO rates will be the same as the current rates at RAH...now as for CA rates, they must be negotiated and the moment that those AC are placed on the RAH certificate I don't think you guys will be flying them anymore because no "fence" has been agreed to by anyone.

 

[GuppyWN]

Thanks Cale.

I won't get into the staple/not staple screwjob that may or may not have taken place at Southwest. I'll just say that it's too bad you guys aren't flying to Gary Kelly right now.

Gup

 

[cale42]

You think it's too bad??? Imagine how I feel...

I was an outspoken supporter of the staple to WN.. but that's water under the bridge and long gone now.

I was just clarifying that we are NOT getting stapled at RAH.

cale

 

[cale42]

Oh and when you talk to GK next.. tell him he could still buy the Q's and the certificate, the staple would go uncontested, and he probably has until about mid-November before the certificate is gone.. so he should act quick.

 

[likeitis]

Two things. First, they will in fact pick and choose which parts to abide by, knowing fully that the grievance and arbitration process will take years. Sadly at the regional FO level we are talking the difference between poverty line and not. Many people can't grieve and wait and still put food on the table.

It doesn't take real unions years to settle grievances. The IBT is absolutely dismal when it comes to enforcing their contract. How long has it taken for them to grieve the definition of a seat? The IBT apologists will blame it on the arbitrator but anyone with half a brain can see through the incompetence of the IBT.

 

[BoilerUP]

It doesn't take real unions years to settle grievances.

Yes, "real unions" can and often do take years to settle grievances - especially hotly contested ones that go to system board and then to arbitration.

I believe the ARW ALPA concessionary grievance from 2005 relating to the concessions they took to keep UAL flying but were never actually passed along from AWAC to UAL wasn't settled until sometime in 2008.

 

[CitationLover]

Would that be the C scale on the B scale republic is currently using to fly the 190 versus the original MEH pay rates for flying the 717 with 11 (correction 12 with 1 MEL'd) fewer seats?

 

[cale42]

FYI Jet Blew was the first regional to offer a B scale.

Your FO rates will be the same as the current rates at RAH...now as for CA rates, they must be negotiated and the moment that those AC are placed on the RAH certificate I don't think you guys will be flying them anymore because no "fence" has been agreed to by anyone.

Ummm.. your wrong on all counts. It has been announced by RAH that once the planes are on the Republic certificate they will be fenced. And they will be operated under Republic work rules but current Lynx pay rates.

I'm genuinely sorry neither the company or the union is telling you these things, because us Lynx folks could really use some support here, and some rage directed at the company. They have created a B scale, added aircraft to a certificate and hired street captains essentially, without a peep from IBT. I don't think this is in anyones best interests.

 

[cale42]

Would that be the C scale on the B scale republic is currently using to fly the 190 versus the original MEH pay rates for flying the 717 with 11 (correction 12 with 1 MEL'd) fewer seats?

C-scale.. love it, I think we should start using it immediately.

cale

 

[Popeye0537]

1.H.5.c wrote:
The operations of the Company and those of the other air
carrier shall be kept separate unless and until the processes
described in paragraph b above is completed and the
seniority lists of the two pilot groups are integrated in
accordance with Sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-
Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions are completed. During
such time of separate operations, neither aircraft nor pilots
shall be interchanged without the Union’s written consent.


RAH will need written consent to place those A/C on the certificate. Also if all Lynx pilots become RAH pilots, you must attend new hire process which takes time. This is all fluff until the FAA approves the moving of the AC to the RAH certificate.

 

[cale42]

RAH will need written consent to place those A/C on the certificate. Also if all Lynx pilots become RAH pilots, you must attend new hire process which takes time. This is all fluff until the FAA approves the moving of the AC to the RAH certificate.

They will approve it. Early November time frame. The new hire training is already scheduled.. they are sending people to Denver to do it. Indoc only, 2 weeks.

IBT needs to react to this. NOW.

cale

 

[Popeye0537]

They are on it as we speak, but I just re-read the F9FYI and it didn't state anywhere that Lynx pilots would be operating the Q's....it just states RAH pilots.

No rate, no RAH trained turboprop operators, Union consent.....seems like a lot to complete by Oct 1 when the planed transition occurs.

 

[cale42]

It won't be Oct 1. Transition will happen mid November timeframe.

I have the documentation that says it will be Lynx pilots flying the planes with a fence. It's an official Q and A from RAH management.

How many things have been done without union consent even when required in the last 24 months?? Aren't you also required to have 6 months notice when they add a new type airframe. How did that go with the 190's? Seems like the company was able to impose that flying just fine without union consent.

cale

 

[rumrunner300]

Q

. . . as long as the pay rates assigned to
such aircraft type are not less than the rates provided by this Article or the
principal Agreement for aircraft with similar power plant (turboprop or jet)
and seat range that either includes the number of seats in the new aircraft. . .

I hate to say anything since I don't have the entire agreement (Article) in front of me but it seems to me that said aircraft would need the same seat range AND powerplant to be included. If one wishes to attempt to emphasize the former clause, I presume the article "provides" for 70 (or however many seats the Q4's have) Jet.

This just might be a case of purely bad lawyering. Pay more, it's worth it.

Again, I don't have the whole contract to read so the above is conjecture only.

rr

 

[cale42]

An admittedly interesting interpretation of the language rumrunner.

I took it to mean any aircraft with a similar powerplant had to be paid based on the number of seats rates already established. Interpreting similar to mean it has to be the same powerplant brings up a fascinating point. I don't think that is what the language intended but it is a great point.

cale

 

[CitationLover]

there is no such thing as iron clad scope.

 

[Jetjockey]

there is no such thing as iron clad scope.

Especially when it's only 2 paragraphs long!

 

[Popeye0537]

It won't be Oct 1. Transition will happen mid November timeframe.

I have the documentation that says it will be Lynx pilots flying the planes with a fence. It's an official Q and A from RAH management.

How many things have been done without union consent even when required in the last 24 months?? Aren't you also required to have 6 months notice when they add a new type airframe. How did that go with the 190's? Seems like the company was able to impose that flying just fine without union consent.

cale

170/190 are a common type A/C, so there was no need to have the union agree to them. The only thing that must be negotiated was the first 3 deliveries came configured with 100 seats. Arbitration has been ongoing since they set foot in MKE.

As for what management has said.....ask the F9 guys who were told that to their face that they were going to remain a stand alone certificate, then with our union at the table, did the currly shuffle backwards as fast as they could.

 

[cale42]

As for what management has said.....ask the F9 guys who were told that to their face that they were going to remain a stand alone certificate, then with our union at the table, did the currly shuffle backwards as fast as they could.

So you honestly believe that RAH will furlough 40 Lynx guys, and pay to train 40 RAH guys to fly the Q? And have all that done in time to continue routes into ASE for ski season? The company will do what is financially most acceptable to them(which will be fence the Lynx pilots on the Q) and tell the union to grieve it if they have a problem.

This is the reality, and I thoroughly expect IBT to grieve it. However the day we are put on the Republic certificate we also become represented by IBT and they have to look out for our rights as well. It is a Catch 22 I don't envy, but it is a fact of life. It would behoove everybody not to bicker over 40 seats, but to focus on not letting management create a superiorly sub-standard B-scale without any IBT intervention.

cale

 

[Popeye0537]

No I think that they will try to keep the props running until April but the backlash that will ensue will not be worth the effort in the end and they will just shut it down after a month or so.

You have not paid dues so you will not be represented by the IBT until such time that the paperwork is filled out....also you are an at will employee until your first year of probation is completed.

70 seats are 70 seats, so I don't know how you would call them B scale once they are set by a LOA. If anything Lynx set the standard for those sub-standard wages by which now management will try to retain them. You were your worst enemy by taking the job at Lynx and now you want my union to do what you were unwilling to do in the first place....???

 

[cale42]

No I think that they will try to keep the props running until April but the backlash that will ensue will not be worth the effort in the end and they will just shut it down after a month or so.

You have not paid dues so you will not be represented by the IBT until such time that the paperwork is filled out....also you are an at will employee until your first year of probation is completed.

70 seats are 70 seats, so I don't know how you would call them B scale once they are set by a LOA. If anything Lynx set the standard for those sub-standard wages by which now management will try to retain them. You were your worst enemy by taking the job at Lynx and now you want my union to do what you were unwilling to do in the first place....???

Wow.. you really hate Lynx guys don't you?

If there is going to be backlash why isn't it happening NOW? Why is IBT being silent about this?

My constant gripe about the B-scale is because your CBA clearly states that if an aircraft is added to a certificate it must be paid at the same rates as already established for that aircraft until an LOA is reached. By paying the Lynx pay scale and not the RAH payscale this is a direct violation of your CBA. It also places you guys at an extreme disadvantage whenever Section 6 negotiations resume in earnest. Now the company will have a new lower pay scale they can point to and use as a baseline. The companies first arguement will be those guys make less, so should you.

In the short term I will openly admit I'm protecting my own dog in this fight, and I'll also admit our rates our embarrassing. I'm interested in protecting the overall group in the long term though and if IBT lets this happen it is not good for anybody. I wish we had fixed our own rates but we didn't(and there is a big difference between unwilling and unable), now is another opportunity and I want "your" union, soon to be "my" union as well to do right by all of us.

cale

 

[CX880]

No I think that they will try to keep the props running until April but the backlash that will ensue will not be worth the effort in the end and they will just shut it down after a month or so.

You have not paid dues so you will not be represented by the IBT until such time that the paperwork is filled out....also you are an at will employee until your first year of probation is completed.

70 seats are 70 seats, so I don't know how you would call them B scale once they are set by a LOA. If anything Lynx set the standard for those sub-standard wages by which now management will try to retain them. You were your worst enemy by taking the job at Lynx and now you want my union to do what you were unwilling to do in the first place....???

wow. a regional whore insulting another regional prostitute. what else is new?

 

[Mongolikecandy]

If anything Lynx set the standard for those sub-standard wages by which now management will try to retain them. You were your worst enemy by taking the job at Lynx and now you want my union to do what you were unwilling to do in the first place....???

Hey Pot, it's the kettle. 20 year payscales and FOs top out at $37. And don't give the weak argument that this was negotiated years ago. It was a sh*tty deal back when it was signed.

 

[MCOE175]

It won't be Oct 1. Transition will happen mid November timeframe.

I have the documentation that says it will be Lynx pilots flying the planes with a fence. It's an official Q and A from RAH management.

How many things have been done without union consent even when required in the last 24 months?? Aren't you also required to have 6 months notice when they add a new type airframe. How did that go with the 190's? Seems like the company was able to impose that flying just fine without union consent.

cale

I personally know 2 check airmen that are going to YUL for training on the Q in Sept. They also said there are going to be transition classes opening for bidding in Sept. Who knows what the plans are, but I really don't think BB is going to fence lynx... he wouldn't have a say in that. The unions work that out as part of the integration.