Republic Airways to buy 10 jets from US Airways

[MCDU]

Not gonna happen.

AWA pilots were flying big airplanes at RJ wages back in the 90's, with no pension and no real work rules. They lowered the bar to gain quick upgrades and to fly big jets, which shows you that there are always pilots that will work for alot less. Now most legacies are even with AWA rates.

This put pressure on the legacy airlines work force. Its a vicious cycle. The crappier the company, the faster the upgrade when airlines are hiring.

M

 

[trainer8]

Its time for the "regional" guys and gals that fly the 100 seat rj to take a stand and demand big airplane pay! don't use the excuse well I'm doing this to get on at Delta so I can make the big bucks, mgmt has seen you comming for years, they will offer you $90.00/hr to fly the 777 around the world and you will do it unless you grow "some" now and make a stand!

And what if they do? Will that make a difference for you?

 

[trainer8]

Maybe... but when as a collective group are we going to decide where the "major" airline pay starts, at what level of equipment. Many were hoping that the E190 would be that line in the sand and this seriously erodes that. Now you say that RAH is gonna operate the E190 as a seperate entity, not on their fee for departure contracts, but when RAH pilots (and mesa pilots on the 100 seat rj's) agree to fly this equip for ridiculously low rates, it effects EVERYONE, even the majors who are working to bring a 100 seat airframe to the major ranks w/major pay. If everyone in the industry saw the E190 as a major aircraft then many airlines would not be as fearful to make a committment to buy them only to see themselves undercut at the knees by a two bit regional carrier flying the same or newer models with newbe pilots making food stamp wages.

I find it ironic that posters on this site fail to recognize how regionals proliferated. It was because mainline pilots (some posters on this thread) negotiated their own flying away to regional carriers. Mainline pilots gave way flying AND aircraft to regional carriers with their eyes wide open. Then they point and call names and blather on about their jobs being flown by the carriers they just empowered! What a schizophrenic group.

It's time to man-up with you're NC and get the planes back on you're property.

 

[St. Nic]

Not gonna happen.

AWA pilots were flying big airplanes at RJ wages back in the 90's, with no pension and no real work rules. They lowered the bar to gain quick upgrades and to fly big jets, which shows you that there are always pilots that will work for alot less. Now most legacies are even with AWA rates.

This put pressure on the legacy airlines work force. Its a vicious cycle. The crappier the company, the faster the upgrade when airlines are hiring.

M

For a while Southwest had the quickest upgrades of the major airlines. USAir had the longest, so by your measure USAir was the best major to work for and Southwest was the worst. I see your logic! So, how long have you been in the right seat at USAir, not including your multiple furloughs.

 

[MCDU]

Well many furloughed USAIR pilots in the 90's went to Southwest and went back to USAIR in 1998. USAIR had one of the best contracts and pensions in the industry once. How things change.

Usair had 2-3 year upgrades in the mid 80's. That is why so many pilots went there. The guys hired in 1988 or 1989 missed the boat by 4 years.

M

 

[Corbon]

I find it ironic that posters on this site fail to recognize how regionals proliferated. It was because mainline pilots (some posters on this thread) negotiated their own flying away to regional carriers. Mainline pilots gave way flying AND aircraft to regional carriers with their eyes wide open. Then they point and call names and blather on about their jobs being flown by the carriers they just empowered! What a schizophrenic group.

It's time to man-up with you're NC and get the planes back on you're property.

Haa! Airways already tried this, remember the 190s? They can't even do that right.

"We'll be happy to accept crappy pay for these shiney new planes, We can worry about improving that little stuff later. It's just important that they come here."

Then they got all kinds of pats on the back for taking a stand and stopping the outsourcing.

Now, the kicker is, they negotiated wages similar to, and even in some cases less than what is in our ratty old contract, signed when we didn't even know what a 190 was. So our management can tell us NOW in negotiations "why do you need more? You're making as much or more than legacy captains. Ok, we'll bump the FO pay up a bit but you captains are doing just fine. Jetblue? They're not a legacy, don't worry about those rates."

In summary, they took planes, took crappy rates, flew at those crappy rates, sell planes to regional in contract negotiations, then whine about the regional screwing up the industry.

Hey, maybe you can keep the planes on property by offering up concessions, ya know, to "raise the bar".

As if the majors of long ago didn't sell out our careers enough....

 

[Full of LUV]

Livin in the past....

Haa! Airways already tried this, remember the 190s? They can't even do that right.

"We'll be happy to accept crappy pay for these shiney new planes, We can worry about improving that little stuff later. It's just important that they come here."

Then they got all kinds of pats on the back for taking a stand and stopping the outsourcing.

Now, the kicker is, they negotiated wages similar to, and even in some cases less than what is in our ratty old contract, signed when we didn't even know what a 190 was. So our management can tell us NOW in negotiations "why do you need more? You're making as much or more than legacy captains. Ok, we'll bump the FO pay up a bit but you captains are doing just fine. Jetblue? They're not a legacy, don't worry about those rates."

In summary, they took planes, took crappy rates, flew at those crappy rates, sell planes to regional in contract negotiations, then whine about the regional screwing up the industry.

Hey, maybe you can keep the planes on property by offering up concessions, ya know, to "raise the bar".

As if the majors of long ago didn't sell out our careers enough....

You all just continue to live in the past. What happened in the 80's, 90's, and 00's, while great fireside fingerpointing chat, is useless on how to fix the situation now.

The babyboomers have left us with one F'd up industry for pilots, mostly with a me, me, me mentality. Actually, most of the economy suffers from the same ills. Our economy doesn't participate in capitlism as much as it does outsourcing. Labor is seen as a commodity, not a fixed cost.

The above points address what is wrong if the "majors" try to capture any flying back at this point. The wage disparity is so vast, that no company is going to agree to pay 30% more for the same service that they can now outsource for a discount. We need to have a national strategy to bring the bottom up, then incorporate the bottom back into the industry.

Our only national leverage is the ability for the substandard pay companies to be limited on their ability to get their crews to and from work. If skybus can find 300 pilots who are living in CMH to staff their airline next time it starts up, then so be it, but it will be hard for any company to achieve growth as a blacklisted company.
What is the point of the National Union, except for the legislation part, if they are not willing to set a standard for entry?

Everyone is so mired in the past that they can't conceive of a future where things are different, they would rather just assign blame and then commute to their job. Just an observation.
MDCU just likes to dig at AWA whenever possible.
Regional lifer captains like to assign blame to the majors for their creation (yes, it's true..... that ship has sailed)

Encouraging the majors to "undercut" the regionals to get the planes "on property" is exactly the wrong approach in my opinion. No ONE group can effect a change, it has to be done nationally!

 

[BoilerUP]

No ONE group can effect a change, it has to be done nationally!

...and that's the problem with the airline industry. Dozens of carriers with multiple different unions (or lack thereof) make an industry-wide solution impossible.

Most pilot groups lack unity within themselves, and you expect a mass movement across tens of thousands of pilots which would require each person making some level of personal sacrifice and/or putting their own situation at risk?

My niece would like a pony for Christmas, but much like your naively unrealistic plan, it ain't gonna happen. Don't mean to be harsh or provoke an argument, but any offered solution for long-term improvement has got to be measured and most importantly, realistic.

 

[Full of LUV]

I find it ironic that posters on this site fail to recognize how regionals proliferated. It was because mainline pilots (some posters on this thread) negotiated their own flying away to regional carriers. Mainline pilots gave way flying AND aircraft to regional carriers with their eyes wide open. Then they point and call names and blather on about their jobs being flown by the carriers they just empowered! What a schizophrenic group.

It's time to man-up with you're NC and get the planes back on you're property.

YES, trainer, you are correct. Guess what, those "mainline pilots" are now mostly widebody captains who have very little knowledge or care of your situation or future.

Therefore, to get the mainline NC to "get the planes back on property" is the wrong approach.
One, the group is at least 70% apathetic because it doesn't really affect them. (In fact some would give away 100 seat flying, because they believe the more money the company saves on the bottom, can be spread amongst the top).
Two, the only way the NC could persuade the company to "get the planes back" would be to provide savings below the "contract carriers". That would only be achieved through labor savings, ie even lower pay.
I'm talking about pilot pay, irregardless of who's SL they are a part of. Mainline, contract carrier, LCC. If the pilot world is truly a "profession" then their should be a floor for labor. Like the NFL, a salary minimum. You know the NFL players league realized along time ago that MANY people would play FOR FREE, so that they could log valuable playing time and show off their skills in hopes of one day landing a primo contract, so the UNION, set a MINIMUM that a player on any roster has to be paid.

The Boomers left GEN X a ******************** sandwich of an economy and pilot profession, counting on them to fix it is a lost cause. Gen X and Y will be left with fixing it, and like it or not, it will have to be an industry wide solution, or it will continue to slide. There are just too many pilots out of work to count on a supply side of labor to support higher wages.

 

[spacecadet1]

This once again needs to be posted: If you have any marketable skill and half a brain, then there are better careers out there. Let's do ourselves and everyone else a favor by discouraging anyone from pursuing this job.

 

[Full of LUV]

Realistic????

...and that's the problem with the airline industry. Dozens of carriers with multiple different unions (or lack thereof) make an industry-wide solution impossible.

Most pilot groups lack unity within themselves, and you expect a mass movement across tens of thousands of pilots which would require each person making some level of personal sacrifice and/or putting their own situation at risk?

My niece would like a pony for Christmas, but much like your naively unrealistic plan, it ain't gonna happen. Don't mean to be harsh or provoke an argument, but any offered solution for long-term improvement has got to be measured and most importantly, realistic.

I suppose the most difficult part would be to get the different unions to agree what an acceptable "minimum" would be. It would have to be lower than several carriers already make.
I don't see the "risk" as much as you do, in fact the status quo is way more riskier.
The existing companies would embrace the fact that others, especially startups would be required to compete via other avenues than just cheap labor.
Most of the pilot groups have been beat down and those that havn't yet worry to be soon as well. I think a credible plan could be achieved easier than most of the naysayers would like to believe. In the meantime, I encourage you to get RAH to raise rates as fast as possible, but I have a feeling that your contract is YEARS away from change. You have at least a two/three year SLI battle ahead, and that is just to get to the point where the lawsuits can start flying.
DALPA had it right when before the merger went down, they used the leverage available to get the contract first, then work on the SLI.
RAH managment says, F'off labor, we'll just merge and operate seperately till the cows come home and someday when finally forced to merge operations or raise wages, we'll buy COMAIR and make it our low cost biatch.
Don't you see, you are being played, and the profession has to stand together for all PILOTS flying part 121 operations, or the whole career field is doomed. There will always be outsourcing pressure.
Quality doesn't matter, Safety doesn't matter, money matters.
Colgan had arguably the most unprofessional cockpit banter just prior to crashing this winter, last I checked, they are still flying as CAL, you know why, 'cause they are cheap.

 

[Corbon]

You all just continue to live in the past. What happened in the 80's, 90's, and 00's, while great fireside fingerpointing chat, is useless on how to fix the situation now.

The babyboomers have left us with one F'd up industry for pilots, mostly with a me, me, me mentality. Actually, most of the economy suffers from the same ills. Our economy doesn't participate in capitlism as much as it does outsourcing. Labor is seen as a commodity, not a fixed cost.

The above points address what is wrong if the "majors" try to capture any flying back at this point. The wage disparity is so vast, that no company is going to agree to pay 30% more for the same service that they can now outsource for a discount. We need to have a national strategy to bring the bottom up, then incorporate the bottom back into the industry.

Our only national leverage is the ability for the substandard pay companies to be limited on their ability to get their crews to and from work. If skybus can find 300 pilots who are living in CMH to staff their airline next time it starts up, then so be it, but it will be hard for any company to achieve growth as a blacklisted company.
What is the point of the National Union, except for the legislation part, if they are not willing to set a standard for entry?

Everyone is so mired in the past that they can't conceive of a future where things are different, they would rather just assign blame and then commute to their job. Just an observation.
MDCU just likes to dig at AWA whenever possible.
Regional lifer captains like to assign blame to the majors for their creation (yes, it's true..... that ship has sailed)

Encouraging the majors to "undercut" the regionals to get the planes "on property" is exactly the wrong approach in my opinion. No ONE group can effect a change, it has to be done nationally!

I actually I agree with most of that. My only issue is the majors have opened Pandoras box, and now they're blaming everybody else for not putting the evils, that they allowed to escape, back in the box. They simply finger point and insult those companies that they have allowed to grow.

I guess I'm just tired of the namecalling over things that are well beyond our control and those blame us for the downfall of the industry. We signed a short term contract in a poor economic environment, trying to fight an alter-ego situation, with nothing larger than 50 seats in sight. When I started here, we had mostly Saabs and I'd love to have flown one of those if it meant getting on with a major. Nobody seems to see the importance of keeping everybody on one list, instead they focus on the negatives. Since then, we've become our current airline more rapidly than anyone could have ever imagined. Nobody is happy with our contract. But right now, we have few options other than let the negotiating committee do their thing, and if it's not to our liking, vote it down and take it to strike if need be.

This time we don't have the carrot of growth and upgrade dangling in front of the new guys. Everybody here has been with us long enough to know they deserve more, no matter which seat because they may be there for awhile. The dissatisfaction of the current working environment is evident and I am confident that we will not settle on a contract just to get it over with. I fully anticipate voting the first one down, although I'd love to be surprised.

I believe our growth will work in our favor. If we vote something in that isn't a significant improvement, I'll be disappointed and will accept the scorn of those around us.

Yeah, this is coming from a possible "lifer". Although sometimes I think differently, most of the time I believe the negatives overcome the positives in terms of starting over in this industry.

 

[Full of LUV]

Roger that.....

I actually I agree with most of that. My only issue is the majors have opened Pandoras box, and now they're blaming everybody else for not putting the evils, that they allowed to escape, back in the box. They simply finger point and insult those companies that they have allowed to grow.

I guess I'm just tired of the namecalling over things that are well beyond our control and those blame us for the downfall of the industry. We signed a short term contract in a poor economic environment, trying to fight an alter-ego situation, with nothing larger than 50 seats in sight. When I started here, we had mostly Saabs and I'd love to have flown one of those if it meant getting on with a major. Nobody seems to see the importance of keeping everybody on one list, instead they focus on the negatives. Since then, we've become our current airline more rapidly than anyone could have ever imagined. Nobody is happy with our contract. But right now, we have few options other than let the negotiating committee do their thing, and if it's not to our liking, vote it down and take it to strike if need be.

This time we don't have the carrot of growth and upgrade dangling in front of the new guys. Everybody here has been with us long enough to know they deserve more, no matter which seat because they may be there for awhile. The dissatisfaction of the current working environment is evident and I am confident that we will not settle on a contract just to get it over with. I fully anticipate voting the first one down, although I'd love to be surprised.

I believe our growth will work in our favor. If we vote something in that isn't a significant improvement, I'll be disappointed and will accept the scorn of those around us.

Yeah, this is coming from a possible "lifer". Although sometimes I think differently, most of the time I believe the negatives overcome the positives in terms of starting over in this industry.

I do not begrudge a single pilot that has gone to most any regional. That is the system of civilian entry that the baby boomers have put in place the last decade. If you want to be a pilot, there is not many other ways to get into the 121 business.
Now that the majors are not hiring, it's time to make sure the "lifers" have a career as well. That will stabilize the outsourcing and actually probably lead to more consolidation.
Right now, why would DAL agree to bring a jet to mainline when they can convince another company to provide the lift for 30% less, base solely on labor.
If DAL thought that a given rate was the floor that a 190 could be flown at per contract carrier or in house, there would be less tendancy to outsource.
I am advocating where all unions get on board with an association or guild and define the floor of wages in this industry and one of the most potent weapons they have is the j/s because the cheaper the carrier, the more commuters you need.
The legacy companies could be persuaded, because they are as hurt by LCC's paying below the minimum as the pilots are.
I don't see any way RAH or any other one company can turn the train around, because suppose you did get some outstanding, put everyone to shame, knee slapping contract negotiated (unlikely, and 5 years away from any TA). Your pilot group would be in danger of what every other group is, another new regional, called XXXjets flying for 40% less able to do contracts for all the majors, winning all the RFP's until they are cash rich and decide to go it alone.
COMAIR had a regional industry leading contract for some time after their strike I believe, look how that has ultimately turned out. If they flew their jets at 50% less than the other DCI carriers, what do you think their load of the DCI contracts would be today?
Once you had a labor association or guild, you'd have much consolidation as then being bigger would be better since labor is not in the equation of cost control.
LUV

 

[Jetjockey]

This once again needs to be posted: If you have any marketable skill and half a brain, then there are better careers out there. Let's do ourselves and everyone else a favor by discouraging anyone from pursuing this job.

We do have a marketable skill. Flying airplanes is a skill, and some are pretty darn good at it. I think the better point is to DEMAND pay to match the time it takes obtain said skills and certificates.

 

[becket]

Well many furloughed USAIR pilots in the 90's went to Southwest and went back to USAIR in 1998. USAIR had one of the best contracts and pensions in the industry once. How things change.

Usair had 2-3 year upgrades in the mid 80's. That is why so many pilots went there. The guys hired in 1988 or 1989 missed the boat by 4 years.

M

"Many" left SWA to go back to US air in 98? Try 1. One solitary idiot.

That guy was made fun of for his sheer stupidity. He left a Capt. seat at SWA to go back to us air...hoping steven wolf would save the day and he would have the career he always envisioned

That guy was an idiot, as is anybody still hanging on to the dream that the old us air...the one that was a great place to work for about 13 months in the mid 80s, will EVER return.