Republic Airways to buy 10 jets from US Airways

[ACL65PILOT]

Once upon a time, a "regional" airline in Texas started flying 737s for lower pay, worse workrules, and no retirement....Now that airline is a place that many want to work....

Funny how we don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot....

I get the reference, but RJET is not WN.

 

[Full of LUV]

All true....

Once upon a time, a "regional" airline in Texas started flying 737s for lower pay, worse workrules, and no retirement....Now that airline is a place that many want to work....

Funny how we don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot....

Funny ha ha, or funny sad? All true, and that "regional" airline has barely changed it's contract in most of those years except to sprinkle lots of stock on the top end of the seniority list.
NEARLY everyone else (with the exception of the cargo carriers) has gone the other way and had to match that regionals stance on retirement, workrules, and lower pay. Most went below due to BK's.

Joe, do you favor ASA's contract being compared to RAH's next cycle. I know you are comfortable right now with your quality of life as an ASA Capt, but do you want RAH flying the 190 for pay less than your 50 seat jets? Where does that leave ASA in competition for flying that jet in the future?
Ironicallly, it's not just about the regionals undercutting the majors, more and more it's about the regionals undercutting the regionals and LCC's.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I get the reference, but RJET is not WN.

How did WN start? All of the "majors" started out small....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Funny ha ha, or funny sad? All true, and that "regional" airline has barely changed it's contract in most of those years except to sprinkle lots of stock on the top end of the seniority list.
NEARLY everyone else (with the exception of the cargo carriers) has gone the other way and had to match that regionals stance on retirement, workrules, and lower pay. Most went below due to BK's.

Not "funny" or "sad"....Simply the reality of the marketplace...

Joe, do you favor ASA's contract being compared to RAH's next cycle. I know you are comfortable right now with your quality of life as an ASA Capt, but do you want RAH flying the 190 for pay less than your 50 seat jets? Where does that leave ASA in competition for flying that jet in the future?
Ironicallly, it's not just about the regionals undercutting the majors, more and more it's about the regionals undercutting the regionals and LCC's.

What I "favor" is irrelevant...I have to compete with RAH...and so do you.

Did you work for Mesa?

 

[Full of LUV]

What???

Not "funny" or "sad"....Simply the reality of the marketplace...



What I "favor" is irrelevant...I have to compete with RAH...and so do you.

Did you work for Mesa?

I did not work for MESA, but irrelevant had I. It's akin to asking someone if they are gay before borrowing their car.....

You have to compete, yes. Should you subsidize their operation? They will be shipping crews all over the country for the next few years and then probably hiring, looking for someone willing to take the FO job at that pay.
Should ASA (well really Delta since they pay all of your costs plus profit) subsidize their operation for the next 10 years until they can get their contract "in line" with industry norms. Or worse yet, like the SWA example, everyone else comes down to their level?
If they want to hire local pilots and fly their routes without jumpseating to work, then touche, professional pilots are overpaid. But if they are using everyone else as a stepping stone to supplant them, then that is an absurdity in this industry.
It's like Home Depot being required to haul all of Lowes inventory to the major cities on their dime, for Lowes to stock and sell as a competitor to HD.
Oh, and BTW, you don't have to compete with RAH, Delta does. You can sit in you comfy ASA capt seat and not worry about ticket sales, profits, or service, because at the end of the day, as long as DAL is in bidness, you have a job, well until the next RFP of course.

 

[Jetjockey]

How did WN start? All of the "majors" started out small....

I'm pretty sure SW didn't start by a fee for departure scheme for a major airline partner, while providing low-cost (pay) outsourcing.

 

[nonstop]

Once upon a time, a "regional" airline in Texas started flying 737s for lower pay, worse workrules, and no retirement....Now that airline is a place that many want to work....

Funny how we don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot....

Right, like that regional airline in Columbus... Skybus. Eh six of one, half dozen of another. A crazy old lady in N'Orleans won the lottery that means every old crazy lady in N'Orleans will be RICH!

 

[kf4amu]

The pilots of Republic are not to blame, all regionals are the same, Skywest, RAH, Gojet, Eagle, etc... they ALL fly routes that do not belong to them... they are simply low paid contract workers. Lots of regional pilots will play the " my regional is better than your regional " but in the end the are all the same. No one of them owns the "scumbag" title more than another.... they all stink.

There are a few regionals where people are willing to stay for the balance of their careers. The reason is because they much better than the others for your own situation.

Notice nobody stays at RAH, Colgan or Mesa for their careers.

So yes, many airlines own the scumbag title way more than others.

 

[AWACoff]

There are a few regionals where people are willing to stay for the balance of their careers. The reason is because they much better than the others for your own situation.

Notice nobody stays at RAH, Colgan or Mesa for their careers.

So yes, many airlines own the scumbag title way more than others.

There are plenty of lifers at Mesa. Seriously, with 250 hours of flight time, how would you even come by your opinion that "nobody stays" at any of the carriers you mentioned? It certainly isn't from sharing drinks with any of these folks on an overnight. Even at Great Lakes there were/are lifers.

 

[scrub]

Its time for the "regional" guys and gals that fly the 100 seat rj to take a stand and demand big airplane pay! don't use the excuse well I'm doing this to get on at Delta so I can make the big bucks, mgmt has seen you comming for years, they will offer you $90.00/hr to fly the 777 around the world and you will do it unless you grow "some" now and make a stand!

 

[MCDU]

Not gonna happen.

AWA pilots were flying big airplanes at RJ wages back in the 90's, with no pension and no real work rules. They lowered the bar to gain quick upgrades and to fly big jets, which shows you that there are always pilots that will work for alot less. Now most legacies are even with AWA rates.

This put pressure on the legacy airlines work force. Its a vicious cycle. The crappier the company, the faster the upgrade when airlines are hiring.

M

 

[trainer8]

Its time for the "regional" guys and gals that fly the 100 seat rj to take a stand and demand big airplane pay! don't use the excuse well I'm doing this to get on at Delta so I can make the big bucks, mgmt has seen you comming for years, they will offer you $90.00/hr to fly the 777 around the world and you will do it unless you grow "some" now and make a stand!

And what if they do? Will that make a difference for you?

 

[trainer8]

Maybe... but when as a collective group are we going to decide where the "major" airline pay starts, at what level of equipment. Many were hoping that the E190 would be that line in the sand and this seriously erodes that. Now you say that RAH is gonna operate the E190 as a seperate entity, not on their fee for departure contracts, but when RAH pilots (and mesa pilots on the 100 seat rj's) agree to fly this equip for ridiculously low rates, it effects EVERYONE, even the majors who are working to bring a 100 seat airframe to the major ranks w/major pay. If everyone in the industry saw the E190 as a major aircraft then many airlines would not be as fearful to make a committment to buy them only to see themselves undercut at the knees by a two bit regional carrier flying the same or newer models with newbe pilots making food stamp wages.

I find it ironic that posters on this site fail to recognize how regionals proliferated. It was because mainline pilots (some posters on this thread) negotiated their own flying away to regional carriers. Mainline pilots gave way flying AND aircraft to regional carriers with their eyes wide open. Then they point and call names and blather on about their jobs being flown by the carriers they just empowered! What a schizophrenic group.

It's time to man-up with you're NC and get the planes back on you're property.

 

[St. Nic]

Not gonna happen.

AWA pilots were flying big airplanes at RJ wages back in the 90's, with no pension and no real work rules. They lowered the bar to gain quick upgrades and to fly big jets, which shows you that there are always pilots that will work for alot less. Now most legacies are even with AWA rates.

This put pressure on the legacy airlines work force. Its a vicious cycle. The crappier the company, the faster the upgrade when airlines are hiring.

M

For a while Southwest had the quickest upgrades of the major airlines. USAir had the longest, so by your measure USAir was the best major to work for and Southwest was the worst. I see your logic! So, how long have you been in the right seat at USAir, not including your multiple furloughs.

 

[MCDU]

Well many furloughed USAIR pilots in the 90's went to Southwest and went back to USAIR in 1998. USAIR had one of the best contracts and pensions in the industry once. How things change.

Usair had 2-3 year upgrades in the mid 80's. That is why so many pilots went there. The guys hired in 1988 or 1989 missed the boat by 4 years.

M

 

[Corbon]

I find it ironic that posters on this site fail to recognize how regionals proliferated. It was because mainline pilots (some posters on this thread) negotiated their own flying away to regional carriers. Mainline pilots gave way flying AND aircraft to regional carriers with their eyes wide open. Then they point and call names and blather on about their jobs being flown by the carriers they just empowered! What a schizophrenic group.

It's time to man-up with you're NC and get the planes back on you're property.

Haa! Airways already tried this, remember the 190s? They can't even do that right.

"We'll be happy to accept crappy pay for these shiney new planes, We can worry about improving that little stuff later. It's just important that they come here."

Then they got all kinds of pats on the back for taking a stand and stopping the outsourcing.

Now, the kicker is, they negotiated wages similar to, and even in some cases less than what is in our ratty old contract, signed when we didn't even know what a 190 was. So our management can tell us NOW in negotiations "why do you need more? You're making as much or more than legacy captains. Ok, we'll bump the FO pay up a bit but you captains are doing just fine. Jetblue? They're not a legacy, don't worry about those rates."

In summary, they took planes, took crappy rates, flew at those crappy rates, sell planes to regional in contract negotiations, then whine about the regional screwing up the industry.

Hey, maybe you can keep the planes on property by offering up concessions, ya know, to "raise the bar".

As if the majors of long ago didn't sell out our careers enough....

 

[Full of LUV]

Livin in the past....

Haa! Airways already tried this, remember the 190s? They can't even do that right.

"We'll be happy to accept crappy pay for these shiney new planes, We can worry about improving that little stuff later. It's just important that they come here."

Then they got all kinds of pats on the back for taking a stand and stopping the outsourcing.

Now, the kicker is, they negotiated wages similar to, and even in some cases less than what is in our ratty old contract, signed when we didn't even know what a 190 was. So our management can tell us NOW in negotiations "why do you need more? You're making as much or more than legacy captains. Ok, we'll bump the FO pay up a bit but you captains are doing just fine. Jetblue? They're not a legacy, don't worry about those rates."

In summary, they took planes, took crappy rates, flew at those crappy rates, sell planes to regional in contract negotiations, then whine about the regional screwing up the industry.

Hey, maybe you can keep the planes on property by offering up concessions, ya know, to "raise the bar".

As if the majors of long ago didn't sell out our careers enough....

You all just continue to live in the past. What happened in the 80's, 90's, and 00's, while great fireside fingerpointing chat, is useless on how to fix the situation now.

The babyboomers have left us with one F'd up industry for pilots, mostly with a me, me, me mentality. Actually, most of the economy suffers from the same ills. Our economy doesn't participate in capitlism as much as it does outsourcing. Labor is seen as a commodity, not a fixed cost.

The above points address what is wrong if the "majors" try to capture any flying back at this point. The wage disparity is so vast, that no company is going to agree to pay 30% more for the same service that they can now outsource for a discount. We need to have a national strategy to bring the bottom up, then incorporate the bottom back into the industry.

Our only national leverage is the ability for the substandard pay companies to be limited on their ability to get their crews to and from work. If skybus can find 300 pilots who are living in CMH to staff their airline next time it starts up, then so be it, but it will be hard for any company to achieve growth as a blacklisted company.
What is the point of the National Union, except for the legislation part, if they are not willing to set a standard for entry?

Everyone is so mired in the past that they can't conceive of a future where things are different, they would rather just assign blame and then commute to their job. Just an observation.
MDCU just likes to dig at AWA whenever possible.
Regional lifer captains like to assign blame to the majors for their creation (yes, it's true..... that ship has sailed)

Encouraging the majors to "undercut" the regionals to get the planes "on property" is exactly the wrong approach in my opinion. No ONE group can effect a change, it has to be done nationally!

 

[BoilerUP]

No ONE group can effect a change, it has to be done nationally!

...and that's the problem with the airline industry. Dozens of carriers with multiple different unions (or lack thereof) make an industry-wide solution impossible.

Most pilot groups lack unity within themselves, and you expect a mass movement across tens of thousands of pilots which would require each person making some level of personal sacrifice and/or putting their own situation at risk?

My niece would like a pony for Christmas, but much like your naively unrealistic plan, it ain't gonna happen. Don't mean to be harsh or provoke an argument, but any offered solution for long-term improvement has got to be measured and most importantly, realistic.

 

[Full of LUV]

I find it ironic that posters on this site fail to recognize how regionals proliferated. It was because mainline pilots (some posters on this thread) negotiated their own flying away to regional carriers. Mainline pilots gave way flying AND aircraft to regional carriers with their eyes wide open. Then they point and call names and blather on about their jobs being flown by the carriers they just empowered! What a schizophrenic group.

It's time to man-up with you're NC and get the planes back on you're property.

YES, trainer, you are correct. Guess what, those "mainline pilots" are now mostly widebody captains who have very little knowledge or care of your situation or future.

Therefore, to get the mainline NC to "get the planes back on property" is the wrong approach.
One, the group is at least 70% apathetic because it doesn't really affect them. (In fact some would give away 100 seat flying, because they believe the more money the company saves on the bottom, can be spread amongst the top).
Two, the only way the NC could persuade the company to "get the planes back" would be to provide savings below the "contract carriers". That would only be achieved through labor savings, ie even lower pay.
I'm talking about pilot pay, irregardless of who's SL they are a part of. Mainline, contract carrier, LCC. If the pilot world is truly a "profession" then their should be a floor for labor. Like the NFL, a salary minimum. You know the NFL players league realized along time ago that MANY people would play FOR FREE, so that they could log valuable playing time and show off their skills in hopes of one day landing a primo contract, so the UNION, set a MINIMUM that a player on any roster has to be paid.

The Boomers left GEN X a ******************** sandwich of an economy and pilot profession, counting on them to fix it is a lost cause. Gen X and Y will be left with fixing it, and like it or not, it will have to be an industry wide solution, or it will continue to slide. There are just too many pilots out of work to count on a supply side of labor to support higher wages.

 

[spacecadet1]

This once again needs to be posted: If you have any marketable skill and half a brain, then there are better careers out there. Let's do ourselves and everyone else a favor by discouraging anyone from pursuing this job.