Reliability Gulf - Dassault ?

[G4G5]

True, compared to the Gulfstream, I'm sure you feel the Falcon is under powered. I"m sure someone flying an F15 feels the Gulfstream is under powered. Whats your freggin point?

And for someone flying the space shuttle an F15 seems under powered. I have been in a 2000 at max gross and then had to turn the anti ice on at FL230. Then asked by center to take a radar vector because 260 knots and 500 fpm on the VSI doesn't cut it.

Just about every Falcon ever built has required some sort of engine power enhancement. How many times have you seen Gulfstream do it?

I believe that was his point.

With that being said I still like Falcons. The French design a superior product. The wing is an anhedral vs a dihedral on the G's. The fusalage is smooth vs the G's still hand building theirs. I could go on.

I believe the question was reliability. I have worked on both and flown both. I would call it equal, they both do a nice job.

Product support, goes to Gulfstream, this is where the G's really have a tremendous advantage over both Dassault and Bombardier.

 

[GVFlyer]

G-VFlyer .... do you have 2 handles? You are quoting me as if I responding to your post.

No, just firing on a target of opportunity.

Yes I know your opinion about the complete Gulfstream line, but when I go to the web page it still says Gulfstream.

I guess my real gripe is we used to own a G100 (hence the flightinfo name) and were VERY excited when Gulfstream bought out IAI. We were made promises about this fix and that fix on how Gulstream was going to make the Astra/G100 a reliable Gulfstream. In the end that is all we got, empty promises and much more expensive (although more avialable) parts. Our G100 was a POS until the end. Gulfstream did nothing to fix "their" airplane.

I know the "legacy" line is an awesome fleet, but the G100 -G200 is now your line and you must own it ... like or not. If is was not a Gulfstream they would call it a Gulfstream 200, right? Even if it is a total compromise in the Gulfstream tradition.

I don't know... a good friend of mine, Mike R., was put in charge of entry-into-service for the IAI aircraft, did the best job humanly possible, and was fired for his efforts. The first year Gulfstream owned Galaxy total sales were up, but revenues were down because of the cost of supporting the IAI product line.
The Big G definitely is commited to the aircraft and bringing it up to Gulfstream reliability standards, but I think that's still a ways down the road. The G150 with the 12" width extension and the G-III nose will probably be a good aircraft - the wing that's under it was designed for it.

There's a national G150 Roadshow going on now so you'll probably get a chance to see it.

GV

 

[gern_blanston]

I have been in a 2000 at max gross and then had to turn the anti ice on at FL230. Then asked by center to take a radar vector because 260 knots and 500 fpm on the VSI doesn't cut it.

That is the one and only complaint I have about our '2000. With the heats on in the mid-20's, especially at ISA+, the climb rate absolutely comes to a screeching halt. I've been flying contract work in a couple of 2000EX's, and they're much better.

 

[G100driver]

That is the one and only complaint I have about our '2000. With the heats on in the mid-20's, especially at ISA+, the climb rate absolutely comes to a screeching halt. I've been flying contract work in a couple of 2000EX's, and they're much better.

The straight 2000 with anti-ice on kinda flies like it needs to go to a retirement home?

 

[AA717driver]

A friend once said he'd fly a barn door if they paid him $200k a year to do it.

Let's stop this schoolyard bravado. G, DA and BBD all build good airplanes. Some problems exist--that's a fact of life in this business.

If I had my choice, I'd fly a BBJ. The Gulfstream makes me feel like I'm working on a submarine sometimes. I'd take M.78 for 14 hours and a little more elbow room rather than .85 for 11 hours and feeling like I need a can opener to get me out of the plane.

But WTFDIK.TC

 

[gern_blanston]

The straight 2000 with anti-ice on kinda flies like it needs to go to a retirement home?

Indeed it does, Dave.

 

[GVFlyer]

If I had my choice, I'd fly a BBJ. The Gulfstream makes me feel like I'm working on a submarine sometimes. I'd take M.78 for 14 hours and a little more elbow room rather than .85 for 11 hours and feeling like I need a can opener to get me out of the plane.

But WTFDIK.TC

Heresy! (Wait till you see what's coming)

GV

 

[AA717driver]

Heresy! (Wait till you see what's coming)

GV

If you build it, we'll buy three! TC

 

[Senior_Citizen]

This afternoon, after meetings with advisors and the accountant, my friend choose his next jet.

- And the Winner is ............

Gulfstream Aerospace G450

(I'm a Da900 fan :'( )

Why we choose it Against the Da900 EX?

1) Its field performance warrants us full operational capability all 365 day/yr, while the Da900 doesn't warrants this when we need to operate on dirty runaways.

2) Maintenance W/O Worries.

3) Cheaper, Doesn't matter its bigger fuel burn and DOC, because we plan to use it only 400-500 hr/yr, and the 3.5MM$ saved (vs Da900EX) earn enough rates to compensate it.

4) Interior: Roomier, WLan Internet, Tailwind 500.

5) Quality: (Improved on the G450).

6) Is easiest to find crews and ground personnel with experience on the very similar GIV-GIVSP-G400.

7) Exist the open possibility to get an used GIV and to trade it by our plane (the same G200's deal but with an GIV).

We will place our order on few weeks (depends now on our accountant).

When will need an extra Captain then I'll contact the forum with the details (maybe soon, but I'll use a different nick), we could finance the type rating if required, but a large experience (2000+hr) on G-IV's is a condition "sine qua non".

After print the post I still following this thread so hot guys.

Now the Gulfstream Guys won, that doesn't means the Falcons are bad or dangerous plane, no only means that the Gulf was the best choice for our needs.

Again, thanks to every "Driver".

Best Regards.

........ " Senior Citizen "

 

[semperfido]

good choice

 

[AA717driver]

Senior--Glad the choice has been made. You need to look at the crewing requirements, though.

The G450 is not the same type rating as the GIV/G400 family. It is the same type rating as the GV/G500/G550. Strange but true.

Again, congratulations.TC

 

[sleepy]

Then why buy the 7x, why not just get the G550?

 

[Senior_Citizen]

The G450 is not the same type rating as the GIV/G400 family. It is the same type rating as the GV/G500/G550. Strange but true.

Yes, we know, but is better to train an pilot with experience on the same family, than with other type of plane, and you must not forget that the low speed aeroynamical charasteristics are the same, at the joke is the same plane, at high speed, the performance is a little better.

Then why buy the 7x, why not just get the G550?

We will use this plane for 6 or 7 years (my fiend's policy is not to fly nothing with more than 4000hr), then we will to study the available options.

 

[G4G5]

The 7x is going to be a tough sale to most corporate flight ops. No one I know wants to have an part of the first 100 aircraft. This is evident by the fact that Net Jets is in negotiations to get a large order/percentage of the first batch of 7x's. Dassault would not look to cut any large volume discount deals unless they were having difficulties moving the product.

Once the first 100 or so are flying around and the fleet has some time on it, I would look for sales to take off.

I just don't see too many 900ex ez operators rushing to be the first guy on the block with a fly by wire corporate jet.

Try to remember that if you are the aviation director and your reccomendation to the boss is the 7x (or any new airframe) and his $40 million dollar aircraft is not 99+% relilable (like the competition), with poor product support. Or even worse they just doesn't meet the numbers. Your butt is the one on the unemployment line.

Hence reason why GAC sells so many aircraft.

 

[sleepy]

The 7x is going to be a tough sale to most corporate flight ops. No one I know wants to have an part of the first 100 aircraft. This is evident by the fact that Net Jets is in negotiations to get a large order/percentage of the first batch of 7x's. Dassault would not look to cut any large volume discount deals unless they were having difficulties moving the product.

Once the first 100 or so are flying around and the fleet has some time on it, I would look for sales to take off.

I just don't see too many 900ex ez operators rushing to be the first guy on the block with a fly by wire corporate jet.

Try to remember that if you are the aviation director and your reccomendation to the boss is the 7x (or any new airframe) and his $40 million dollar aircraft is not 99+% relilable (like the competition), with poor product support. Or even worse they just doesn't meet the numbers. Your butt is the one on the unemployment line.

Hence reason why GAC sells so many aircraft.

I have to agree with you here. We were one of the first to own a Global Express, and there is a huge difference in the reliability of our aircraft versus the later production. I believe that the 7x will eventually be the industry standard for business jets, but I would not want to be the department manager that orders one of the first 20 or 30 aircraft.

 

[fokkerjet]

Try to remember that if you are the aviation director and your reccomendation to the boss is the 7x (or any new airframe) and his $40 million dollar aircraft is not 99+% relilable (like the competition), with poor product support. Or even worse they just doesn't meet the numbers. Your butt is the one on the unemployment line.

Hence reason why GAC sells so many aircraft.

I don't recall the GV having an "issue free" intro.. How many loyal customers were pissed off by the hydraulic pump problems and the engine fan inspections? After 20 or so airplanes, the GV matured into a much better airplane, hense I would have to agree with the premise of not being the first on the block with the shiney new airplane.

I would feel a lot more comfortable flying a fly-by-wire corporate aircraft produced by Dassault (and Gulfstream) than by say Cessna; Dassault and General Dynamics (Gulfstream) have years of experience building fly-by-wire systems in fighters.......look at the problems WSofD's manufacture had with the E170

 

[semperfido]

all true. just ask ibm about hyd pumps- let's not forget rotor bow- they aren't perfect. i still like the grumman

 

[fokkerjet]

Just yankin' your chain Fido

i still like the grumman

Which one; the GI or GII?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

all true. just ask ibm about hyd pumps- let's not forget rotor bow- they aren't perfect. i still like the grumman

NO NOT THE "Grumman" THING!!

and please STOP interrupting class with war stories for chrissakes!

..

 

[AA717driver]

"Grumman"?! Which one, the Widgeon or the Goose?

Theres old school, then there's just old... TC

 

[G4G5]

I was in an FBO the other day and I heard a younger FO say the he was going out to preflight the "G Unit".

When did time pass me by?

 

[semperfido]

forgetabout "grumman", i like "G unit"-- and i always wanted to be a "Gman"

 

[fokkerjet]

never mind

 

[semperfido]

i think they got into canoes after w2 when vavy contracts dried up - time to go pre-flight the G unit

 

[2000flyer]

The 7x is going to be a tough sale to most corporate flight ops. No one I know wants to have an part of the first 100 aircraft. This is evident by the fact that Net Jets is in negotiations to get a large order/percentage of the first batch of 7x's. Dassault would not look to cut any large volume discount deals unless they were having difficulties moving the product.

Then who are you saying bought them through 2008 or so that have deposits on them? At 2.5 a/c per month (DFJ says 2.5-3 but we'll use 2.5 in this example), positions are sold out into 2009 (again, for the sake of argument lets say 1/1/09). Production aircraft will start at s/n 04. s/n 1 is flying, 2 and three due on the line in the next 2-3 month, so lets say #4 will be out of the factory September 1. That will be 7.5 aircraft produced this year, 30 in 06, 30 in 07 and 30 in 08. Thats 97 aircraft currently holding deposits.

Tough Sale????

2000Flyer

 

[G4G5]

Then who are you saying bought them through 2008 or so that have deposits on them? At 2.5 a/c per month (DFJ says 2.5-3 but we'll use 2.5 in this example), positions are sold out into 2009 (again, for the sake of argument lets say 1/1/09). Production aircraft will start at s/n 04. s/n 1 is flying, 2 and three due on the line in the next 2-3 month, so lets say #4 will be out of the factory September 1. That will be 7.5 aircraft produced this year, 30 in 06, 30 in 07 and 30 in 08. Thats 97 aircraft currently holding deposits.

Tough Sale????

2000Flyer

You may want to do some reaserch. You say 97 but reality is almost half of that.

This is from March 7,2005's Business Week
"The French company logged 69 business-jet orders last year, up from 40 in 2003. Fifty 7X jets are now on order, enough to keep the Bordeaux factory humming through 2008."

The 7x is definatly NOT moving as you or Dassault predicted

Now do you really think that anyone is paying close to the $37 million list price, I think not. To give you a better idea:
"The 7X tri-jet will have a range of about 5,700 nmi, and will have a new wing with a high-transonic design. Rosanvallon said there are 35-40 deposits of no less than $1 million each for the 7X. Production would be sold out through 2008 if all deposits were realized"

Say they have 50 deposits on order @ approx $1 mill per option, that equates to ONLY $50+ million realized for the entire 7x project.

Any wonder why they are looking to cut a deal with NetJets?

Now once again for the record, I like Falcons but I would not want any part of the first 100, nor as an AD would I recommend one.

The first 3 are test aircraft. How many of the next 47 are actually going to real corporate custmers? How may are going to large government customers, like the Aussies(how many of the first 900's did they buy) or the Italians(I believe they have 4 or 5)? How many are just speculators who are taking a chance that if they plunk down $1 mill, they may be able to sell their spot down the road for a profit? How many are customers like August Bush, who would by a brick with wings on it if Dassault made it?

The real money payers, who aren't going to be getting the big discounts won't be found until 100 or so are flying and that's not happening until 2010+

 

[G100driver]

Now once again for the record, I like Falcons but I would not want any part of the first 100, nor as an AD would I recommend one.

How, true. #1 reason we would not look at a CL-300 or did not want to take delivery of an EASy 2000.

One of my good friends flight department took one of the 1st 50 G-V's. After the 5th or so canceled flight the CEO told the D.O to call Gulfstream and have them "deliver and airplane the F'n flies."

In the end, I am sure that the 7X will make it and give Gulfstream a run for their money.

 

[2000flyer]

While I'm sure some governments have purchased the plane, I'm told there are quite a few fortune 500 types that have ordered them also. Yes, some I'm sure were speculation, That being said, however, I highly doubt DFJ (or Gulfstream, Cessna, Boeing, Airbus, etc. etc.) would launch an aircraft to be a loser.

End the end, I think the 7X will be a great success, just as the V turned out.

2000Flyer

 

[G4G5]

It's not just the 7x, it's every mfr. I remember the first G4's were real POS's. They were delivered with no auto throttles, nothing was working the first 30 had to go back to the factory for extensive work (PEP). Then the whole brake by wire mess.

I had one CEO have me take back his new G5 (one of the first 30) and drop it on the ramp in SAV. The whole hyd pump fiasco was a mess.

Belive me it's me, it's every mfr . and selling the first fly by wire corporate jets is a tough sale

 

[fokkerjet]

Fly-by-wire is "old news" now; I don't think anybody is going to think twice about it.

IMHO, what's hurting the 7X is the fact that it's last out of the gate as a "long range" corporate jet, (Gulfstream, Bombardier, Boeing and Airbus got most of that market, Falcon is just picking up the late comers now) and it's range comes up short by comparison. 5700 miles seems pretty short when you figure that Gulfstream started out at 6000+, and now they are pushing over 6500.