Regional Pay Comparisons

[Nova]

I don't see anyone signing on for a seniority based pool vs. the leveling system. Once our seniority list stops moving those at the bottom will forever be used while the top guys never get touched. Forget that. I think the leveling system works just fine as it's fair AND balanced. The system can always use some tweeks though.

I personally would like to see a No Fly preference in addition to our Will Fly and No Preference choices. The wording needs to be changed so that the Will Fly folks actually fly instead of being given ASB. Folks with No Preference are flying more than the Will Fly pilots at times.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal: Yes I am on reserve here. I was planning on bidding reserve for the foreseeable future too. I have read the contract. The words "first in first out" that I am referring to come from CCS. At the top of the page under reserve availability...

CMRSVE CREW MANAGEMENT SYSTEM T2272100
COEX RESERVE AVAILABILITY REPORT PAGE: 04
SEQ BY: FIRST IN FIRST OUT

So sorry if I used the wrong term. Let me rephrase then... What is the chance of going away from the "leveling system" and going to strictly seniority for the no preference guys? Is there a benefit to the company to have the leveling system over seniority order?

I must say goodbye my wife is mad that I am not pulling my weight with the chores. I have been ordered to turn off the computer for the day and so back to work I go.

The "Honey Do" list eh?

No worries on the FIFO thing. I was just surprised to see someone of your knowledge level think we had FIFO. That title is apparently an error or a typo. I already have an email in about it. Thanks for pointing it out. FIFO is not a fair system in our eyes. We debated various reserve systems ad nauseum during negotiations and ultimately wanted a tiered system that placed the will-fly's in seniority order and the no-preferences by leveling. Leveling ensures that everyone gets to fly. Inequities exist more in a FIFO world than in our system. No reserve system is perfect but we think ours more adequately addresses the wants and needs of our pilot group than other systems out there. There is always room for tweaking however.

-Neal

 

[detwilers]

I don't see anyone signing on for a seniority based pool vs. the leveling system. Once our seniority list stops moving those at the bottom will forever be used while the top guys never get touched.

Not necessarily, you have to look at the big picture. The junior guys would end up somewhere near the middle of the list because the more senior guys that want to fly, will be flown first. The key is making reserve a little more lucrative so that some people that would normally hold a line will have incentive to bid reserve occasionally. Some of these guys would want to be on fly me first so that they can get their pay way up for the month while some put themselves on call me last to fly a little less but pay suffers slightly.

Even when the airplane deliveries come to a halt at XJT, there will still be way more movement here than there was at indy. As long as there is some movement no one would be "stuck" on reserve for years like many of us were at indy (No one was hiring back then and indy was slowly shrinking up until the mass furloughs started in Jan.). Besides, if more senior guys bid reserve it will free up some hard lines for more junior people that really want them and hence making your time on reserve much less. I do think the fairest way is to use seniority. We don’t take all the pairings at the beginning of the month and split them into equal lines with equal pay and equal days off. The more senior hard lines are better than the junior lines. Seniority rules in this industry.

However the idea mentioned earlier about having an additional call category may help a little. There have been many times when I’ve checked CCS to see a dreaded four day trip in my schedule (I prefer one or two day stints). One day I was talking to a buddy of mine that was below me in the same bucket and he was telling me how since he commuted he would love to have the four day I had instead of nothing. A lot of people that are on “No Preference” do not necessarily not want to fly. Neal: when you pointed out the FIFO thing I instantly realized that I had the wording wrong. If I had to choice between FIFO and the current leveling system, I would take the leveling system any day. We used to use FIFO at ACA a long time ago.

 

[Bart Simpson]

Wait a minute, pilots get credited for time they don't fly? And the company pays that? Man, I need that kind of union to negotiate my next contract, thats for sure.

I'm just kidding, you guys aren't overpaid at all, it's just all that tuition you need to pay back that puts the regional pilots in such piss poor moods, gripping about not earning enough money.
Totally understandable.


-OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, I SAID BACON AND EGGS !!!

 

[Nova]

Not necessarily, you have to look at the big picture. The junior guys would end up somewhere near the middle of the list because the more senior guys that want to fly, will be flown first. The key is making reserve a little more lucrative so that some people that would normally hold a line will have incentive to bid reserve occasionally. Some of these guys would want to be on fly me first so that they can get their pay way up for the month while some put themselves on call me last to fly a little less but pay suffers slightly.

I don't think making assumptions that the junior guys won't "really" be junior due to the bidding habits of more senior pilots will make for better work rules. A line holder bidding Reserve/Will Fly? Why the heck would they not just take the hard line and enjoy the ability to trip trade? Assumptions aren't a good bases for Negotiating. We'll get screwed in the end every time.

Even when the airplane deliveries come to a halt at XJT, there will still be way more movement here than there was at indy. As long as there is some movement no one would be "stuck" on reserve for years like many of us were at indy

More movement? Wow, what crystal ball are you looking at? Over the last 12 months I've moved up an average of 31 slots a month thanks to the end of the Flowbacks, those hired at other companies, the 112 and now the PIGs. Will that continue after the last PIG leaves property? No where near that level I'm sure. Before CAL recalled we saw movement of about 1-2 a month. That's quite a difference especially when you have 2300 pilots. Even if we saw 15-20 a month next year that is not even a drop in the bucket when we have 2700-3000 pilots on property. I've heard numbers that we only see maybe 10 pilots leave a month for other carriers. Whatever it may really be I won't be suprised if it's not large enough to keep our seniority list fluid in the upcoming years.

 

[detwilers]

Yes, I agree they are assumptions, but they are based on what I saw at my previous employer. Reserve was spread out over the bottom 25% or so of each seat rather than the bottom 10% here. AN example of why someone might bid reserve over a hard line is because they want weekends off. This is true for me. I will NOT EVER bid a relief line because of the chance of having to possibly work on the weekend. I prefer to bid reserve weekends off. Occasionally at ACA I would switch to "Will Fly" while on reserve at ACA. This way I could get the more productive trips (6:45 to 7:45 credit per day) and this would allow me to get my reserve bump up for the moth. I could have easily held a line with 14 days off but they may have had to work a couple weekend days during the month. (I am on a team sport and we either are training on the weekends or are participating in events, also my wife works late on the weekdays so the only quality time I get to spend with her is on the weekends.)

My assumption of there still being some movement is just based on the industry pulling out of the nose dive it is in. Majors and Nationals are picking up hiring more and more, slowly but surely. I worked in recruiting at a small major for a little while almost 7 years ago. It is just a matter a time before things pick up to 1 tenth of hiring that was going on at that time. I am not saying that people will be leaving in droves any time soon just that unless we actually start losing airplanes (which may happen too) there will still be some movement. Believe me 15-20 a month is MUCH better than nothing.