Regional jets: Reign over Part 2

[UALRATT]

TURBO CHARGED
Using turboprops for some regional jet replacement is an option that Bombardier is confident will be pursued. Between early 2000 and December 2009, the Canadian airframer delivered 65 Q400s to US operators, including to Alaska Air Group subsidiary Horizon, Pinnacle Airlines subsidiary Colgan and Frontier.
While the 11 Q400s operated by former Frontier unit, and now Republic subsidiary, Lynx Aviation are being culled from Republic's fleet, Bombardier "clearly believes there is a role for the Q400 in North America", says Gordon Pratt, who is director for the Q400 aircraft programme. He points out that the Q400 "enters services that were either previously flown by jets or are still flown by jets and are being supplemented by turboprops at different times of the day". A stretch of the Q400, dubbed the Q400X, also "remains high interest to existing and potential new customers", says Pratt. "It's going to be a very versatile airplane. In terms of seat mile costs, it has the potential to be a tremendous airplane."
Abbey adds: "I think operators will tell you, and original equipment manufacturers will certainly tell you, that there absolutely is room for more turboprops in the US fleet. The arguments are water tight in terms of comfort, economics and performance - basically all the criteria that fleet planners look at. But there is clearly - and sadly - hesitancy in codesharing operations to make that commitment."

 

[ricj41]

No where in the articles does it state that the flying is going back to the mainline carrier. It is just going to disappear. The routes that mainline cannot compete with an lcc will just be given up to the lcc.

 

[beagle pilot]

No where in the articles does it state that the flying is going back to the mainline carrier. It is just going to disappear. The routes that mainline cannot compete with an lcc will just be given up to the lcc.

Exactly. While some pilots gloat, their airline loses market share and, in the end, they lose career potential to another airline.

 

[UALRATT]

No where in the articles does it state that the flying is going back to the mainline carrier. It is just going to disappear. The routes that mainline cannot compete with an lcc will just be given up to the lcc.

No where did it say that either...

 

[Yuppyguppy]

I found it rather arrogant that fornaro of airtran would recently say legacies would continue to shrink. UAL was arrogant in the 90's too however I'm thinking that a narrowbody jet will soon be on the way. Time will certainly tell.

 

[beagle pilot]

No where did it say that either...

It's obvious to anyone who's taken a Economics course, so it didn't have to spell out the consequences of a legacy airline being unable to effectively compete in certain markets.

http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics1.asp

 

[AAflyer]

It's obvious to anyone who's taken a Economics course, so it didn't have to spell out the consequences of a legacy airline being unable to effectively compete in certain markets.

http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics1.asp

IN the end according to this article my job is effectively coming to end, so the choices are letting the LCCs take it or giving up SCOPE so you can ride around the country in 100-130 seat jets (giving my the finger with a big smile on your face.)

In the end if my job is lost, I would rather let it be lost to an LCC, they still pay far more than your company ever will. If I have to reapply for work again I would rather put in my application at Southwest, Jetblue, or Airtran over Eagle any day of the week..


AA

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Of course, this is all assuming no other external factors. Another bad accident or two from the regional side, especially with a high profile like Buffalo, and it will make HR1586 look like a bill creating "Crossing Guard Appreciation Day"...

Nu

 

[beagle pilot]

IN the end according to this article my job is effectively coming to end, so the choices are letting the LCCs take it or giving up SCOPE so you can ride around the country in 100-130 seat jets (giving my the finger with a big smile on your face.)

It's that attitude which explains why your job may indeed be in trouble. Obviously your emotions and preconceived notions are not only clouding your judgment but also your ability to read and comprehend. Where do you get the idea I have a "big smile" on my face about this?

Understanding and accepting the reality of a situation isn't the same as condoning it, AAflyer.

Accepting that other airlines are competing with the LCCs by utilizing regional airlines for some point-to-point flying and, therefore, your own airline must find an effective method to compete is simply logical. It doesn't mean you or I have to like it. The continued push by corporations to increase profits should be fought by employee groups only to the point where those profits become excessive. If labor caused those profits to drop well below averages of other airlines, then this will effectively "kill the Golden Goose" by forcing the corporation to find another alternative or face the inevitable loss of investors. If you and I were given a choice between investing our life savings in a company which produced results below bonds or investing in bonds, which should we pick? Again, ECON 101 mixed with a little PSYCH 101 aka human nature.

In the end if my job is lost, I would rather let it be lost to an LCC, they still pay far more than your company ever will.

Again your emotions overcome your reasoning. In effect, because you perceive a battle as being lost, you are willing give up the entire war as being lost by surrendering to the enemy. Not very smart.

 

[beagle pilot]

Of course, this is all assuming no other external factors. Another bad accident or two from the regional side, especially with a high profile like Buffalo, and it will make HR1586 look like a bill creating "Crossing Guard Appreciation Day"...

LOL. It's a shame that some airlines cut the safety buffer down to the point where it requires a government fix. The main reason why something wasn't done before was due to organizations like ATA and RAA which used their lobbying power to advocate rules which maximized profits. All to often, the relation between safety and profits is an inverse relationship. The Colgan crash epitomized many of the problems in our industry.

 

[Draginass]

He's just baiting you AAflyer. It's a form of snobbish self-affirmation.

In the end I believe that AA and it's pilots will come to an agreement. But it won't be giving away AA jobs to the likes of commuter lifers.

 

[beagle pilot]

He's just baiting you AAflyer. It's a form of snobbish self-affirmation.

Incorrect. What you see as "baiting" I see as a reality check. What you see as self-affirmation, snobbish or not, I see as laying out the problem for discussion. What I see as a common problem among many pilots is a failure to recognize actual problems aka denial and the lazy desire to focus on attacking other pilots as the problem instead of the economic circumstances affecting this and other industries in the modern world.

In the end I believe that AA and it's pilots will come to an agreement. But it won't be giving away AA jobs to the likes of commuter lifers.

Of course AA and the APA will come to an agreement. Why do you think it is now going on four years to do so? The company isn't pushing hard because they prefer the status quo. Why isn't the APA pushing as hard as the TWU and the APFA for new and improved contract? Could it be because the APA leadership knows that any contract forged in arbitration or bankruptcy court is not conducive to their goals?

Since you believe I'm only baiting and self-affirming, please educate the forum on where I am wrong in my statements.....or are personal attacks all you have?

 

[Flightdawg]

LOL. It's a shame that some airlines cut the safety buffer down to the point where it requires a government fix. The main reason why something wasn't done before was due to organizations like ATA and RAA which used their lobbying power to advocate rules which maximized profits. All to often, the relation between safety and profits is an inverse relationship. The Colgan crash epitomized many of the problems in our industry.

True. We don't need, and probably would never see, a return to regulation, but the government does need to protect the public through oversight of any public service.

 

[JumpersAway]

IN the end according to this article my job is effectively coming to end, so the choices are letting the LCCs take it or giving up SCOPE so you can ride around the country in 100-130 seat jets (giving my the finger with a big smile on your face.)

In the end if my job is lost, I would rather let it be lost to an LCC, they still pay far more than your company ever will. If I have to reapply for work again I would rather put in my application at Southwest, Jetblue, or Airtran over Eagle any day of the week..


AA

Why not staple Eagle such that the APA would have more direct control over work rules and working conditions- keeping all would be outsourced flying "in house"? Regionals don't have to grow at the expense of mainline. However, we continue to allow it given our current mindset.

 

[AAflyer]

He's just baiting you AAflyer. It's a form of snobbish self-affirmation.

In the end I believe that AA and it's pilots will come to an agreement. But it won't be giving away AA jobs to the likes of commuter lifers.

Hey Draginass,

I know he is, and my comments were mild attempt at humor. It is funny this guy talks about attitude. I have gotten enough attitude from their group to last a life time.

AAflyer

(Prior Simmons)

 

[Flightdawg]

I have gotten enough attitude from their group to last a life time.

AAflyer

(Prior Simmons)

Does this mean it's okay for you to act like an immature jerk? Where's the leadership from the World's Greatest Pilots?

 

[AAflyer]

Does this mean it's okay for you to act like an immature jerk? Where's the leadership from the World's Greatest Pilots?

WHy not.... I have repeatedly held the higher ground, and to what end... Nothing, zip nadda... After awhile you cut your losses...

Worlds Greatest Pilot, that sign is for the Eagle Pilots.

 

[crj567]

Why not staple Eagle such that the APA would have more direct control over work rules and working conditions- keeping all would be outsourced flying "in house"? Regionals don't have to grow at the expense of mainline. However, we continue to allow it given our current mindset.

Well, the obvious answer to the "staple" question is: Because all the Eagle guys would be out on the street, behind about 2,000 mainline guys.
Anyone at Eagle would be quite the dumbass to agree to a plain staple.

-Duh

 

[maru657]

LOL. It's a shame that some airlines cut the safety buffer down to the point where it requires a government fix. The main reason why something wasn't done before was due to organizations like ATA and RAA which used their lobbying power to advocate rules which maximized profits. All to often, the relation between safety and profits is an inverse relationship. The Colgan crash epitomized many of the problems in our industry.

This summnation sounds spot on. Of course it's also due to the shortsightedness of people like Randy Babbitt who backed the growth of the regional movement and ALPA policy condoning such, all of the way back to Clancy Sayen. This, despite immediate evidence that this would undermine all of the safety gains made by ALPA up to that point. ALPA's motto used to be schedule with safety, now it's just a sad joke.

 

[beagle pilot]

Well, the obvious answer to the "staple" question is: Because all the Eagle guys would be out on the street, behind about 2,000 mainline guys.
Anyone at Eagle would be quite the dumbass to agree to a plain staple.

Agreed. Although our younger, less experienced pilots see it as a career short cut, in the end, it'd be a career killer.

 

[beagle pilot]

This summnation sounds spot on. Of course it's also due to the shortsightedness of people like Randy Babbitt who backed the growth of the regional movement and ALPA policy condoning such, all of the way back to Clancy Sayen. This, despite immediate evidence that this would undermine all of the safety gains made by ALPA up to that point. ALPA's motto used to be schedule with safety, now it's just a sad joke.

Agreed that there was some short-sightedness in the past, but to their credit, several saw the writing on the wall shortly after the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 was passed. It's called fighting a losing battle. Sometimes those battles should be fought purely on principle, but most of the time fighting them is purely a waste of time and money. Better to run away and fight another day in those cases. The present-day CEO of American Airlines, Gerard Arpey, wrote his 1982 MBA thesis on the factors in play after deregulation: The Airline Industry in Transition -- from Regulation to Deregulation

Laying the blame of the present plight of pilots at the feet of ALPA is not only unfair, it's is lacking a total picture of the problem, IMHO.

 

[beagle pilot]

Does this mean it's okay for you to act like an immature jerk? Where's the leadership from the World's Greatest Pilots?

Yes, it does. Hence the common definitions of their acronyms as "Arrogant (Anal)holes" and the "Arrogant Phallus Association".

 

[JumpersAway]

Well, the obvious answer to the "staple" question is: Because all the Eagle guys would be out on the street, behind about 2,000 mainline guys.
Anyone at Eagle would be quite the dumbass to agree to a plain staple.

-Duh

So there'd be a staple and they'd park all the airplanes too????????

 

[Draginass]

Why not staple Eagle such that the APA would have more direct control over work rules and working conditions- keeping all would be outsourced flying "in house"? Regionals don't have to grow at the expense of mainline. However, we continue to allow it given our current mindset.

Because lacking an incentive (such as massive concessions by AA pilots), I doubt that AA would even consider it. It's not just up to the APA, it's up to AMR. In addition, there are other workgroups that work for cut-rate pay such as the flight attendants and mechanics.

That said, AMR has a day of reckoning coming with the 50 seat RJ rapidly becoming obsolete. I doubt that AE will be viable even as subsidized owned feeder with 47 70-seat class airplanes and whatever routes are still viable with a 50 seat airplane. The APA is in no mood to give any more concessions on scope, especially after losing the recent arbitration on the "secret verbal agreement options" on the last of 47 70-seaters permitted. AMR has demanded even further scope concessions in the new contract negotiations in a 1 for 1 replacement of the 50 seaters with 70 seaters. As you can imagine, that is a non-starter for AA pilots. That would go even beyond the sickly scope protections that DALPA (bankruptcy contract) has now.

The other part of this is the requirement for a 100-seat class airplane which will become in-ignorable soon. I think AA is holding off on that and will attempt to use it to try and get the union to negotiate against itself, which won't work.

Lots of moving parts in this morass. For right now, AA has been stone-walling for a couple of years now (won't even discuss pay rates), apparently satisfied with the current 9-11 concessionary contract. APA wants compensation and scope restoration to pre 9-11 levels while AMR wants an even worse than DALPA bankruptcy contract, only without the disadvantages of fabricating a BK. The meeting will be somewhere in the middle, but certainly more than the current contract, and certainly no more scope concessions.

 

[crj567]

So there'd be a staple and they'd park all the airplanes too????????

Well think about it..... With these guys at the bottom of the AA list, who would now be furloughed? Some guy with 25 years at eagle would now hit the street. Sound fair?

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Well think about it..... With these guys at the bottom of the AA list, who would now be furloughed? Some guy with 25 years at eagle would now hit the street. Sound fair?

Did any of these 25 year eagle pilots ever try to get hired at a major or did they get too "comfortable.?"

 

[AAflyer]

Yes, it does. Hence the common definitions of their acronyms as "Arrogant (Anal)holes" and the "Arrogant Phallus Association".

My point exactly....Who is acting immature now.. Would not expect anything less from you. You wonder why I have given up...

 

[AAflyer]

Did any of these 25 year eagle pilots ever try to get hired at a major or did they get too "comfortable.?"

Too easy to answer. They played the game, lost, and now want to change the rules. Just like the 65ers.. This industry is loaded with self serving individuals.

AA

 

[Flightdawg]

Yes, it does. Hence the common definitions of their acronyms as "Arrogant (Anal)holes" and the "Arrogant Phallus Association".

Ha ha. They do have a certain reputation in the industry. What I find even more ridiculous is their slow taxi program which holds every one up but when cleared for take-off LOOK OUT! They go like banshees. Has anyone ever looked to see if blocking other pilots on the taxi way actually affected AA's arrival and departure times? Don't they even care they are only causing other pilots to hate them?

WHy not.... I have repeatedly held the higher ground, and to what end... Nothing, zip nadda... After awhile you cut your losses...

Most people's character is set in early adulthood. If you think you held the high ground and then gave up, that's fine.