Regional airline crashes & failed checkrides

[HA25]

The other factor not covered is the type of airports that regionals operate to/from. For instance, take landing on 26 at PHL at 140+KTs or 35 at PHL and having to time your appch to land behind a 75 landing on 27R. What about that last minute 'Circle to 33' at DCA? It was fun but come on the risk level increases when we accept that clearance. Maybe I'm honestly missing something. Are majors having to whip stuff out like that? Are they landing on their equivalent of a 5000 feet on the last leg at K-Podunk? Are they flying a jet on their last leg after a full day of snow to a small airport that doesn't have the same runway clearing ability that a Hub has? Again, honest question I had when I read that article: "Are the heavies exposed to the same risks?"

I don't excuse poor airmanship, I just don't trust statisticians.

Youtube is filled with guys flying the big metal doing that day in and day out.. At Gemini, I used to get maybe 2 or 3 landings a month on a good month; most trips were 10+ hours long, and you were exhausted by the time you got to the landing airport, but had to be ready to fly this approach with x-winds etc.. And having flown stuff from the size of an E120, and Citation X to A320's and MD11's, I can tell you it only gets more "challenging" as the relative size of the airplane and runway get closer together ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EQ9-m-nuPI

 

[SennaP1]

there is one major difference between doctors and pilots... there is an over abundance of the later, and a huge shortage (real one) of the former.

So why don't more pilots become doctors?



I know the answer.

 

[Herman Bloom]

I think what you are referring to at Duke was a young illegal immigrant who was put to the top of the transplant list simply because she was here illegally..... No telling how many citizens died because of that one (another issue-but them's the facts.)

First off, the answer to "how many citizens died" would probably be "one". Secondly, there is simply no way that she was advanced to the top of the transplant list because she was an illegal. The process of organ recipient selection is complex, standardized, and way beyond your ability to grasp unless you are a physician. Nice try though.

There are many thousands more folks "killed" per year in this country due to medical error than in airplane crashes. But medicine is infinitely more complicated and "uncontrollable" than aviation and a certain amount of human error is considered, at the very least, expected (and in practice, basically unavoidable and by extension acceptable). Not a very satisfying answer and there is a lot of work yet to be done, but that is the way it is.

 

[bogey383]

I think it is hard to judge someone on the fact they have busted 1 or more 121/135 check rides. I have only failed one ride in my life, my CFIA. I did something stupid. However, in my time in 135/121 I have seen my sim partner and or check airman come in while going through a divorce or bankruptcy or something really taxing. They show up for the event because they are afraid to call in sick and they bust the ride. I don't think it shows a lack of airmanship I think it is something else. I have also seen check airman going through the same things fail guys just so they can. So I don' think a three strikes policy is worth it. Possibly three failures in x amount of time warrants a 709 ride. However, once you pass the 709 your strike count should go back to zero. That is just my opinion.

 

[Hobit]

If the risk is unacceptable, why do you accept the clearance? In those instances that you listed, the buck stops with you.

I never used the word 'unacceptable'. I said 'increases'. Thanks for the ADM lesson. <sarcasm> My point being...never mind.

FMS-Speed,

Thanks for the answer, I appreciate the info.

 

[sopdan]

Thanks for the ADM lesson.

No prob, Hob.

 

[sunlitpath]

"1 out 10 pilots in the major airline accidents had failed multipled check rides". I suppose this means that the training departments at the majors are not failing enough pilots on check rides...

 

[HA25]

"1 out 10 pilots in the major airline accidents had failed multipled check rides". I suppose this means that the training departments at the majors are not failing enough pilots on check rides...

No, I think they just tend to get weeded out well before that 1st year probation period so they're not there to fail.

 

[Lolikoka]

Good point.


I've had my share of "single pilot" experiences. Not at my current carrier, but back at ASA. I was even single pilot (in my opinion) when I was an FO once. That guy was the Captain with the Waycross event on the ATR. Thank god he never killed anyone...but, he should've washed out LONG before I flew with him which was before the Waycross thing. He took about 80hrs of IOE and then later 60 IOE for Captain.

I flew with the Waycross captain on the ATR when I was an F/O; he was claiming to have been a Navy P-3 pilot if remember correctly.

 

[dojetdriver]

No, I think they just tend to get weeded out well before that 1st year probation period so they're not there to fail.

Probably. But if I remember correctly, there is a certain cargo carrier who hired a pilot with a record not unlike the Colgan CA had. Good thing they all made it out of that thing. Also, probably a good thing it was a cargo plane with the fire that ensued.

We could go on and on about it. But I wonder how many pilots that never failed a ride seemed to bend metal somehow. I wonder how many checkrides the AA guys at LIT failed? I wonder how many rides the SW guys in Burbank failed? I wonder how many rides the AA guys in Colombia failed? I wonder how many rides the RAH guys in CLE failed? Just as examples.

to this I say: what about the accidental deaths in hospitals across the usa? how many doctors have prescribed the wrong meds? cutout the wrong organ? or in the case of Duke Univ Med Ctr, transplanted the wrong type kidney into a young hispanic gorl causing her death? ... what about this? its relevant because I don't see hospitals advertising their low accidental death numbers

Good point, and not quite as serious, but how many lawyers fail the bar before passing? How many accountants fail the CPA the first time around? Like I said, not quite as serious.

Doctors only kill one patient at a time. We can kill several hundred with one bonehead mistake.

True, they are like mechanics in that regard, We only get one chance to kill people, they get to do it till they get caught.

 

[HA25]

Probably. But if I remember correctly, there is a certain cargo carrier who hired a pilot with a record not unlike the Colgan CA had. Good thing they all made it out of that thing. Also, probably a good thing it was a cargo plane with the fire that ensued.

Sadly, when it comes to women pilots, the rules seem to be applied differently.. All so we can worship at the alter of equality.

 

[dojetdriver]

Sadly, when it comes to women pilots, the rules seem to be applied differently.. All so we can worship at the alter of equality.

True. But for some reason, I think that if you were to go through the pilot records of EVERY "legacy" or cargo airline, there's probably people just like said cargo carrier, or the CA at Colgan. Regardless of demographic.

You know, the types of pilots that chew up valuable union resources to keep their job, etc.

 

[Nindiri]

How many accidents at airlines using AQP vs airlines using old-fashioned "you bet your job" checkrides?

 

[major payne]

you get what you pay for

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

There is No Substitute for Experience....The media is still, "Highly Ignorant" when it come to any aviation discussion, so don't get wrapped around the axle trying to defend our profession...

 

[LAFrequentflyer]

FoxNews now saying that the FAA is going to take action on the pilot training situation...

 

[crj567]

Sadly, when it comes to women pilots, the rules seem to be applied differently.. All so we can worship at the alter of equality.

Yep-

Just ask around about the ASA guy who landed the plane at Waycross.... There is no dooubt he would have hit the street had he been a plain white boy. Also, think about the white dragon and the other crazy female who scares the heck out of everyone-ever wonder how they never got fired?

 

[crj567]

How many accidents at airlines using AQP vs airlines using old-fashioned "you bet your job" checkrides?

Good point-
Kinda hard to fail a checkride when you never actually take a real checkride.
-Also-people from some 121 flight schools take "stage checks" rather than check rides. From what I understand, a failed "stage check" doesn't show up on an FAA record.

 

[jon210]

so if only 1 of ten pilots from major airline crashes had multiple failures. Does that prove that guys with multible failures are safer

 

[jmreii]

FoxNews now saying that the FAA is going to take action on the pilot training situation...

I can hardly wait, the government is going to try and fix something with our money. More powerful than a speeding kingair, able to leap over a 777 in a single, its a bird, its a frog, its the government. Whatever!