Regional airline crashes & failed checkrides

[Erlanger]

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-06-07-regional-pilots_N.htm

 

[IBNAV8R]

another loophole

Another loophole that congress needs to fix right now or all of America is in imminent danger - whether they fly or not.

"No more pilot training at gun shows!!"

 

[wms]

A paragragh 1/2 way down the page is good. Of the 10 crashes at the majors, 1 involved a pilot with more than one failed checkride. So, 9 fatal accidents involved pilots with exlnt records. It has more to do with the overall past history and professionalism of the crewmembers, as well as current external factors, than check rides alone. Most of these problem pilots had questionable pasts in general and were well-known as generally incompetent, cowboys, undisciplined, etc. Checkrides alone aren't the warning flag.

Also, every airline has their problem child/children that they are carrying for one reason or another. It's difficult to get rid of them either because of connections, compassion of mgmt or the union. But these are the ones that need to be cracked down on.

 

[Brasilia Pup]

I had a FO recently who came though an ab initio program. He wanted to pick his legs based on crosswind components. WTFO?! Needless to say, I nipped that in the bud real quick. Sink or swim. If you aren't competent to land in a crosswind, go find another career! These pilot factories are producing "qualified" but NOT competent pilots.

 

[Heavy Set]

Face it, there are a lot of weak dic#$ out there. You get what you pay for. If the incentives are not there to bring in quality people, then you get the result.

 

[climbhappy]

to this I say: what about the accidental deaths in hospitals across the usa? how many doctors have prescribed the wrong meds? cutout the wrong organ? or in the case of Duke Univ Med Ctr, transplanted the wrong type kidney into a young hispanic gorl causing her death? ... what about this? its relevant because I don't see hospitals advertising their low accidental death numbers

 

[Headfake14]

to this I say: what about the accidental deaths in hospitals across the usa? how many doctors have prescribed the wrong meds? cutout the wrong organ? or in the case of Duke Univ Med Ctr, transplanted the wrong type kidney into a young hispanic gorl causing her death? ... what about this? its relevant because I don't see hospitals advertising their low accidental death numbers

Good point.


I've had my share of "single pilot" experiences. Not at my current carrier, but back at ASA. I was even single pilot (in my opinion) when I was an FO once. That guy was the Captain with the Waycross event on the ATR. Thank god he never killed anyone...but, he should've washed out LONG before I flew with him which was before the Waycross thing. He took about 80hrs of IOE and then later 60 IOE for Captain.

 

[Brody1]

to this I say: what about the accidental deaths in hospitals across the usa? how many doctors have prescribed the wrong meds? cutout the wrong organ? or in the case of Duke Univ Med Ctr, transplanted the wrong type kidney into a young hispanic gorl causing her death? ... what about this? its relevant because I don't see hospitals advertising their low accidental death numbers

Doctors only kill one patient at a time. We can kill several hundred with one bonehead mistake. Not that the problem with these doctors isn't serious, but if I were the government, I'd tackle the problem of airline safety first.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

I have never been a fan of "paying your dues." However, it certainly may help to weed out some of those that really shouldn't be flying for a living. The programs that take you from 0 time to a regional in the FAA minimum are giving people a guarantee that maybe shouldn't exist. Maybe some of these guys coming up today would have quit before they got to the regionals.

 

[20sx]

That article paints regional pilots in a bad light. I think we do an incredible job when you figure in the constant fatigue from terrible work rules, the amount of legs a lot of us do a day, and the terrible airports we fly into that the majors don't.

 

[HA25]

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-06-07-regional-pilots_N.htm

Most telling...

But it gives me an idea of how we can fix this so called pilot shortage that never seems to want to manifest itself..

lets *gasp* actually require people who fly for a FAR 121 as a PIC to only fail one checkride in 10 years or something along those lines..

Wow! raising the bar.. what a concept.

 

[HA25]

Good point.


I've had my share of "single pilot" experiences. Not at my current carrier, but back at ASA. I was even single pilot (in my opinion) when I was an FO once. That guy was the Captain with the Waycross event on the ATR. Thank god he never killed anyone...but, he should've washed out LONG before I flew with him which was before the Waycross thing. He took about 80hrs of IOE and then later 60 IOE for Captain.

I may have had that FO at ASA.. He blew me thru the Loc for the ILS on an early morning arrival into ATL.. thank God I was borderline with it and caught it in time to state "my controls" and turn us in to intercept again..

There was also a gal on the ATR that I flew with while on Reserve that was not much past her teenage years that was consistently lost situationally on in IFR... I had flashbacks of being a CFII flying with her.

 

[climbhappy]

what about a "three stirkes and you're out, as in out of the game for good?"

 

[Hobit]

That article paints regional pilots in a bad light. I think we do an incredible job when you figure in the constant fatigue from terrible work rules, the amount of legs a lot of us do a day, and the terrible airports we fly into that the majors don't.

That's exactly what I thought when I read the article this morning. Regionals have 50% of the flights (20% pax) but what about a specific comparison of time spent in the high risk zone (down low on T/O, APCH, and LNDG) and cycles per duty period.

The other factor not covered is the type of airports that regionals operate to/from. For instance, take landing on 26 at PHL at 140+KTs or 35 at PHL and having to time your appch to land behind a 75 landing on 27R. What about that last minute 'Circle to 33' at DCA? It was fun but come on the risk level increases when we accept that clearance. Maybe I'm honestly missing something. Are majors having to whip stuff out like that? Are they landing on their equivalent of a 5000 feet on the last leg at K-Podunk? Are they flying a jet on their last leg after a full day of snow to a small airport that doesn't have the same runway clearing ability that a Hub has? Again, honest question I had when I read that article: "Are the heavies exposed to the same risks?"

I don't excuse poor airmanship, I just don't trust statisticians.

 

[HA25]

what about a "three stirkes and you're out, as in out of the game for good?"

I'm down for that too.. I mean we've all taken enough checkrides to know that no checkride ever goes perfectly... and that most (if not all) check airman use a more common sense method when evaluating whether a person should pass or fail. Most I've spoken to say something to the effect "I ask myself if I'd put my own family on their airplane at their level of proficiency, and if the answer is no then they fail".. I've seen many a check airman pretend to drop their pencil when a guy temporarily deviated on a ILS or maybe in a steep turn but recovered quickly and safely and had a more or less good ride.. AND, I've seen on a few occasions a check airman give a guy one or two chances to try to recover what should already have been a failed ride, but the guy was a lost cause and would fail.. So in the end, a failed ride is rarely (but I'm sure not always) a case of a one time minor deviation from ATP standards, but usually a sign of a poorly prepared pilot or a poor pilot to begin with.

I myself have failed one check ride in my career.. my Commercial Single Engine, in C-152 "Heavy" during the short field landing.... but since then, thru 5 type ratings (two of them having been done after a 2+ year break from flying and being out of currency), 2 additional checkouts as SIC, and God knows how many PIC and SIC pro-checks.. I've failed 0.. as I'm sure a large number of the pilots on here.. So why should we have to fly with people who've failed 3 or more 121/135 checks?

 

[crj567]

to this I say: what about the accidental deaths in hospitals across the usa? how many doctors have prescribed the wrong meds? cutout the wrong organ? or in the case of Duke Univ Med Ctr, transplanted the wrong type kidney into a young hispanic gorl causing her death? ... what about this? its relevant because I don't see hospitals advertising their low accidental death numbers

I think what you are referring to at Duke was a young illegal immigrant who was put to the top of the transplant list simply because she was here illegally..... No telling how many citizens died because of that one (another issue-but them's the facts.) I think her case was due to someone improperly matching the organs.

Your point about bad doctors is excellent! The problem with the "bad doctor" situation is that you cannot find out a damn thing about a doctor before they have their license suspended/revoked. I remember reading about a Dr. who was found to have screwed up in literally dozens of patients (some who died-others were permanently damaged,) before the medical board finally stripped his license. I am not aware of any way to find out how many people a Dr. has hosed up, either-too many lawyers involved.

 

[HA25]

I think what you are referring to at Duke was a young illegal immigrant who was put to the top of the transplant list simply because she was here illegally..... No telling how many citizens died because of that one (another issue-but them's the facts.) I think her case was due to someone improperly matching the organs.

Your point about bad doctors is excellent! The problem with the "bad doctor" situation is that you cannot find out a damn thing about a doctor before they have their license suspended/revoked. I remember reading about a Dr. who was found to have screwed up in literally dozens of patients (some who dies-others were permanently damaged,) before the medical board finally stripped his license. I am not aware of any way to find out how many people a Dr. has hosed up, either-too many lawyers involved.

there is one major difference between doctors and pilots... there is an over abundance of the later, and a huge shortage (real one) of the former.

 

[crj567]

there is one major difference between doctors and pilots... there is an over abundance of the later, and a huge shortage (real one) of the former.

-True Dat!

 

[sopdan]

The other factor not covered is the type of airports that regionals operate to/from. For instance, take landing on 26 at PHL at 140+KTs or 35 at PHL and having to time your appch to land behind a 75 landing on 27R. What about that last minute 'Circle to 33' at DCA? It was fun but come on the risk level increases when we accept that clearance. Maybe I'm honestly missing something. Are majors having to whip stuff out like that?

If the risk is unacceptable, why do you accept the clearance? In those instances that you listed, the buck stops with you.

 

[jmreii]

That's exactly what I thought when I read the article this morning. Regionals have 50% of the flights (20% pax) but what about a specific comparison of time spent in the high risk zone (down low on T/O, APCH, and LNDG) and cycles per duty period.

The other factor not covered is the type of airports that regionals operate to/from. For instance, take landing on 26 at PHL at 140+KTs or 35 at PHL and having to time your appch to land behind a 75 landing on 27R. What about that last minute 'Circle to 33' at DCA? It was fun but come on the risk level increases when we accept that clearance. Maybe I'm honestly missing something. Are majors having to whip stuff out like that? Are they landing on their equivalent of a 5000 feet on the last leg at K-Podunk? Are they flying a jet on their last leg after a full day of snow to a small airport that doesn't have the same runway clearing ability that a Hub has? Again, honest question I had when I read that article: "Are the heavies exposed to the same risks?"

I don't excuse poor airmanship, I just don't trust statisticians.

You are suppose to use good judgement or common sense at all times, and believe or not, you can fail a checkride for not using common sense despite how you flew the aircraft on a checkride.