Refused, Fired, Quit Game

[Wang Chung]

I have to agree, you should have let them fire you. When you quit you gave up any recourse, i.e. unemployment checks (which your former employer pays into).

Not always. If the Unemployment people determine that you "quit for cause" then you might be eligible for unemployment compensation. It worked for me in a past "situation."

Of course, it all depends on what the Unemployment folks find in their investigation (to include written and verbal statements that are made on the part of the employer and employee, etc) and other variables.

 

[wingnutt]

hmmmm...

• part 91 aircraft goes down
• company replaces it
• pilot asks questions
• questions answered
• pilot declines to do trip

i guess i'll be in the minority also. if i let the "scuttlebutt" around here drive my decision to take or decline a particular flight, i would have been out of a job many moons ago.

 

[stknrdr]

Thanks for standing your ground. Each time one of us does the right thing for safety and legality, it puts operators like that a little closer to being the exception instead of the rule. Even though it isn't putting food on the table right now, if you handled it tactfully you'll be more respected as as result.
I've seen the owners of companies hire people like you back as the CP when these things come out......

 

[tarp]

Thanks all for replies.

To those who are asking questions - after 2 years with this group there is a whole lot more history. Also, for 2 years, there have been no logbooks in sight for this airplane. (Not just at 9:00pm the night before.) For two years (and I'm only counting my history) the airplane has not been listed on certificate. I had been assigned the trip for over a week in advance with the "owner" aircraft. The "switch" took place at 8:00pm the night before my trip. This was not a "pop-up" assignment, the only thing that changed was maintenance taking down the "owner" aircraft - this is a story unto itself where a part came in for a long standing repair item. The job was supposed to be completed in time for my departure but maint found something else wrong and couldn't have the plane ready for a.m. launch.

As to all the recommends....it's not worth it. I resigned and am happier for doing it. I'm not going to burn a bridge or turn them in or do anything vindictive because it just brings me down to their level. I'm too old and too well travelled in life to make waves.

This is 135. My problem was that after all the wink and nod departures I've done for this company - the first time I refuse, I get canned. And I'm (we're) my/our own worse enemies for doing this stuff. And if you guys are true 135 operators you know about wink and nod - those fuel gauges look good to me (as one touches "E" permanently), that weather looks good to me for launch (100 indefinite), that GPS database OK page is always "OK" (did that say 2004?). The list goes on - I've never failed a VOR in an airplane because I was told we never fail a VOR in an airplane - do you think I will be the first pilot at the company to write up "VOR's greater than 5 degrees error"? Like I'm going to say "Altimeter error greater than 200ft, aircraft grounded".

No I fly on with duct tape and chewing gum repairs. I use a lot of "AA" batteries because cockpit lights aren't always dependable. I've flown a couple of trips with a handheld Garmin down at my left knee because my personal unit has a current database and a movng map display and I'm flying around three TFR's and seven Restricted areas on today's trip.

So, yes. There's history. And FSDO? Please. The last check airman saw something wrong at our shop and he put his hands up to the sides of his face stating "What I don't see I don't have to report." The FAA does a lot of stupid stuff but they know if they interfere with MONEY and revenue, they will get in a lot of official hot water.

So, the machine is missing a little cog today but it won't be missed and another little cog will get a call today saying "Yes, we'd like to hire you, when can you start?" And the new guy will find out that all that stuff they teach you in school about airworthiness comes down to a simple equation - Is this worth losing my certificate over?

I reached the point where the answer was "no". I really feel great this week like a stone lifted off my shoulders.

This trip, my boss - I'd give the odds at about 30% that it would have been legal, insured and my boss was telling me the truth. The trip went with some other pilot which just shows that you can't stop the machine and there is always another pilot that will take the trip. I know I'm in the middle of the group - I've told pilots joining the group to not worry about things and just fly when they see the duct tape and missing light bulbs. On the other hand, there are guys that have flown planes and their attitude has been things like "well that's why there's a hand pump...in case the electric pump doesn't work".

The resignation (or I quit) was because I'll go work for some other flying organization. I can't help myself - I can't work at a desk job ever again - I need the cockpit view. I didn't want to be fired or terminated. Then I have to explain that. I just want to move on. See if there's a chance that the next company will be nicer to me (although I've pretty much given up hope on that prospect).

Thanks again.

 

[kingairyahoo]

well...ill be the first to say you sound happier for it, and quite frankly, thats all that matters

 

[leardawg]

Tarps' story sounds sincere, and it seems like he did the right thing. Lord knows there are many similar situations in this industry. There are, however, usually two sides to every story (and the truth usually lies somewhere in between.) Often disgruntled employees will seek to "get back" at a former company and/or employees be embelleshing or outright lying. They may also exaggerate the sins perpetrated by the company in an attempt to justify their situation and actions to avoid accepting any blame themselves. I've seen this happen on numerous occasions. And some people are simply inveterate and incurable malcontents who will be unhappy and grouse no matter where they work. It's simply the way they're "wired". Again, I'm not referring specifically to Tarps' narrative. His story is not uncommon. There is pressure to "find some way to get it done" on occasion no matter where one works. The key is knowing where to draw the line and just say no. A good company will respect and abide by a Captains' decision, even if they don't like the inconvenience it causes. And they will never intentionally put a pilot in a position to do something blatantly illegal or unsafe.

 

[G100driver]

As much as I would like to be sympathetic to what happenend to you, I have to agree. If every pilot asked for all the logbooks, insurance papers, 135 certificates for every trip with a different a/c....well, lets just say it would be a mess. I think you fulfilled your obligation by asking the questions, any more than that, you are just being a pita. And before the flaming starts, how many of you ask for all these documents when flying a different a/c? Avbug may, but I doubt many others do. I also believe there is more to this story than just this one incident.


AK

Not to be arguementative, but ever heard of a MX dispatch release. If you are 135 have you DOM sign your MX dispatch release with a status sheet of next MX due by hours, cycle and days for the following 30 days, 50 hours and 30 cycles. This can be maintianed with CAMPS or AvTrak.

Documentation should always be readily aviable to to any crew member in the event that he/she gets ramped.

Whne I used to ferry A/C for our MX department I always asked for the following:

-Insurance showing me as named or open pilot requirements
-Date of last annual and .411/.413
-Current weight and balance with loading graph. I had one guy remove seats without a new loading graph. I refused the flight until he put the seat back into the airplane.
-And of course ARROW.

 

[AngelKing]

Not to be arguementative, but ever heard of a MX dispatch release. If you are 135 have you DOM sign your MX dispatch release with a status sheet of next MX due by hours, cycle and days for the following 30 days, 50 hours and 30 cycles. This can be maintianed with CAMPS or AvTrak.

Documentation should always be readily aviable to to any crew member in the event that he/she gets ramped.

Whne I used to ferry A/C for our MX department I always asked for the following:

-Insurance showing me as named or open pilot requirements
-Date of last annual and .411/.413
-Current weight and balance with loading graph. I had one guy remove seats without a new loading graph. I refused the flight until he put the seat back into the airplane.
-And of course ARROW.

Never had a fed ask for insurance papers, never once in 30 years. Only the Mexicans have asked for that.

What is 'arrow"


AK

 

[timeoff]

What is 'arrow"

Airworthiness Certificate
Registration
Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit
Operating Manual
Weight and Balance data

It falls under part 91.203....Does this still apply to 135?

 

[G100driver]

Insurance was CYA for myself. Would not want someone to hand me the bill if I bent it.

 

[Capt1124]

Even a Part 91 flight requires a maintenance status sheet. You as PIC must know, and must be able to show an inspector, that required scheduled maintenance has been done.

Asking to see the logbooks might be excessive, but if they aren't willing to give you some written statement of when things are due and the times they were done at you can't fly the airplane.

 

[kingairyahoo]

Even a Part 91 flight requires a maintenance status sheet. You as PIC must know, and must be able to show an inspector, that required scheduled maintenance has been done.

...unless of course you have a 135 release number

 

[Corona]

hmmmm...

• part 91 aircraft goes down
• company replaces it
• pilot asks questions
• questions answered
• pilot declines to do trip

i guess i'll be in the minority also. if i let the "scuttlebutt" around here drive my decision to take or decline a particular flight, i would have been out of a job many moons ago.

Not quite.

If the owner's airplane is down, you can't just "substitute" another airplane in its place, regardless of whether it's the same type, etc.

If you are flying someone in an airplane they don't own, for hire, it must be a Demo flight or 135 charter, with all appropriate paperwork. It sounds to me like the pilot acted appropriately; moreover, it sounds like this probably was not the first company maneuver of this type. Everyone here knows 135 charter is populated with bottom-feeders.

C

 

[kingairyahoo]

If the owner's airplane is down, you can't just "substitute" another airplane in its place, regardless of whether it's the same type, etc.

actually...you can, as long as they have pre-arranged it. we have quite a few owners who have a sort of letter of authorization so that they can swap time in each others aircraft and its all done under 91.

 

[81Horse]

... and its all done under 91.

Part 91 has gotten to be a pretty big tent.