Recall Prater Before He Blows This Merger Too

[JoeMerchant]

That's exactly the opposite of what needs to happen. Power needs to be consolidated in Herndon. Enough of the independent MEC bullsh--. Time for ALPA National to exert some control.

Oh so now it is is "BS" because the real members are getting their Ox gored.....Welcome to the party....But you are very late.....

What do you propose?

 

[PCL_128]

The fact that Occam is complaining about being excluded from the table is EXACTLY the same thing....What DALPA did is legal....

You are making our case that a double standard still exists.....

Occam's airline is being merged with Delta. ASA and CMR were not being merged with Delta. Completely different situations.

 

[PCL_128]

Oh so now it is is "BS" because the real members are getting their Ox gored.....Welcome to the party....But you are very late.....

What do you propose?

John, I've always said that the problem is a decentralization of power. And as I've told you before, Duane always said the same thing. Power needs to be concentrated at National to prevent these sorts of problems.

 

[XJohXJ]

.............

 

[JoeMerchant]

Occam's airline is being merged with Delta. ASA and CMR were not being merged with Delta. Completely different situations.

But Occam is pissed becaused the DAL MEC negotiated a deal without the NWA MEC....They were well within their "right" to do so....

The situation is EXACTLY the same.....NWA is being purchased by DAL.....ASA and CMR were purchased by DAL....You want it to be different because in your mind us little plane drivers aren't real airline pilots....

The glaring hypocracy here is amusing......

 

[JoeMerchant]

John, I've always said that the problem is a decentralization of power. And as I've told you before, Duane always said the same thing. Power needs to be concentrated at National to prevent these sorts of problems.

So again what are your solutions to this problem....I tend to agree with you....What do we do about it?

I personally don't think the elephent MEC's are willing to cede the power....

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Occam's airline is being merged with Delta.

Occam's airline is being ACQUIRED by Delta.

Justice. ALPA cheerleader finally tasting his own medicine.

Pratard could have made this proposed merger successful. He choose to not interfere. His decision is sure to make USAPA 2.0.

 

[PCL_128]

But Occam is pissed becaused the DAL MEC negotiated a deal without the NWA MEC....They were well within their "right" to do so....

The situation is EXACTLY the same.....NWA is being purchased by DAL.....ASA and CMR were purchased by DAL....You want it to be different because in your mind us little plane drivers aren't real airline pilots....

No, Joey, the situation is not the same. NWA is being purchased by DAL and being merged. ASA and CMR were purchased by DAL and were not merged.

 

[PCL_128]

So again what are your solutions to this problem....I tend to agree with you....What do we do about it?

I personally don't think the elephent MEC's are willing to cede the power....

The solution is to consolidate power in Herndon. The problem is exactly what you've stated: egotistical pilots will never cede any of their local power.

In the beginning days of the Association, Captain Behnke understood that the best way to organize the new union would be to centralize power, but he knew from discussions with his "Key Men" that individual pilot groups would not be happy with having power over their individual pilot group controlled by an outside entity. So, as a necessity to make the union a reality, he had to compromise and propose the system we have today of autonomous MECs. It wasn't so much of a problem during the days of regulation when things in the industry went much more smoothly, but deregulation has complicated things exponentially. Unfortunately, the solution to the problem is probably impossible to achieve. That means we have to try to muddle through and make the best of the current system. The result of that is less bargaining power and more disharmony between groups, but they bring it upon themselves by refusing to give up power to National. As always, pilots are their own worst enemies.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, Joey, the situation is not the same. NWA is being purchased by DAL and being merged. ASA and CMR were purchased by DAL and were not merged.

But DALPA has modified their scope to allow DAL to operate NWA separately with the Delta brand and Delta code. In theory they could allow management to operate NWA separately for an indefinate period....That has some of you ALPA cheerleaders pissed now.....

That is the same situation....You just refuse to acknowledge that ALPA's failures in this arena have now come full circle to bite the elephents in the A$$.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

.....but deregulation has complicated things exponentially. Unfortunately, the solution to the problem is probably impossible to achieve. That means we have to try to muddle through and make the best of the current system. ......

No, the worst enemy of the pilots is a failed ALPA which can not function in regards to its members.

ALPA is not about Herdon. It is about the members. Herdon doesn't know it. ALPA doesn't doing it. And the members suffer.

Keep cheer leading for the failure. It establishes your credibility when you in your own words show the failings.

 

[PCL_128]

We don't know what the new DAL LOA language says yet. None of us have seen it.

 

[Morning Wood]

Ladies and Gentlemen

Whether this merger/buyout/acquisition/consolidation happens is up to NW and DL's board of directors and the US Government. Not NWALPA, not DLALPA, not John Prater. Do you honestly think that the executives, BOD's, or the government gives a rat's ass about your seniority, pay, or whether both pilot groups can play nice together?

 

[JoeMerchant]

We don't know what the new DAL LOA language says yet. None of us have seen it.

The NWA pilots have seen it. Even the DALPA publications say they modified the scope to operate NWA apart from DAL with the DAL code and brand.....

Face it....there is a double standard and it now being exposed for everyone to see.....

 

[PCL_128]

My understanding is that the LOA specifies a limited period of time for the operations to be conducted separately. But again, I haven't seen the language, so I don't know what the actual language says. In any case, the situation is not close to being analogous to a purchase of a feeder carrier that is not required to be merged according to the language in either CBA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I thought the big compliant was ALPA doesn't function like a REAL union.... That it needs to do better in terms of its performance as a NATIONAL union.

Well... in order to do that... the MEC's are going to have to give up some autonomy and power.

If 50 states functioned in their own best interest and we didn't have a Federal gov't would we be as effective?

You want language in the ALPA C&BL and/or Admin manual that allows the President to mandate terms or action by the MEC's?? Imagine the outcry from pilots! Yet other pilots are demanding more of a National union. So which is it?

Discuss...

 

[N2264J]

Occam's airline is being merged with Delta. ASA and CMR were not being merged with Delta. Completely different situations.

So when did ALPA decide to yield to management and let them determined when and if a merger occurs?

Answer: August, 2000 during the PID hearing between Comair/ASA/Delta.

Because the mainliners threw the little guys to the alligators first only meant that they [the mainliners] would be eaten last. Management is going to play this out to its logical conclusion and you cheeseheads can't even see it when it's right in front of you and we point it out.

Or do you continue to belabor a lost argument in some juvenile attempt to save face?

 

[PCL_128]

So when did ALPA decide to yield to management and let them determined when and if a merger occurs?

They haven't. Collective bargaining agreements determine if a merger is required to take place, and neither the DAL nor the CMR agreement required a merger to take place. On the other hand, both the NWA and DAL agreements require a merger to take place in this case. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand.

 

[JoeMerchant]

They haven't. Collective bargaining agreements determine if a merger is required to take place, and neither the DAL nor the CMR agreement required a merger to take place. On the other hand, both the NWA and DAL agreements require a merger to take place in this case. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand.

...but both DAL and CMR were in section 6 negotiations and could have made it part of the contract negotiations.....

Are the DAL pilots doing anything that doesn't comply with both PWAs? If they aren't doing anything that doesn't comply with the 2 PWAs then I guess you should be happy....Unless there is a double standard.....

 

[PCL_128]

...but both DAL and CMR were in section 6 negotiations and could have made it part of the contract negotiations.....

I'm not getting into this debate again. Suffice it to say that it's blatantly obvious to everyone that these two situations are completely different. Even you know they are, you're just trying to spin it to suit your purposes and to continue beating the dead horse that is the RJDC's arguments.

Are the DAL pilots doing anything that doesn't comply with both PWAs?

No, they're simply doing something that is monumentally stupid. I never said that they didn't have the right to do what they've done. They clearly do. But they are creating a complete mess by doing so, and it's not good trade unionism.

 

[Airline Driver]

Joey and PLC are at it again. :bomb: Have fun Boyz!!

 

[Freight Dog]

I said it before, I say it again - ALPA is outdated and needs to go.

Here's a little something from the Islands of ALOHA:

As most of you know, Aloha Airlines ceased passenger operations. When they did that, they didn't FURLOUGH the pilots, instead they TERMINATED the pilots in direct violation of our CBA.

What's ALPA doing about it? Not a thing! The company didn't even have to file 1113(c). ALPA just rolled over.

I didn't get to go hang with Prater and the boys that rolled into town because I was already home in the mainland, but from what I gather from everyone, most pilots left the meeting totally disillusioned with ALPA.

 

[flygirlqt]

I said it before, I say it again - ALPA is outdated and needs to go.

Here's a little something from the Islands of ALOHA:

As most of you know, Aloha Airlines ceased passenger operations. When they did that, they didn't FURLOUGH the pilots, instead they TERMINATED the pilots in direct violation of our CBA.

What's ALPA doing about it? Not a thing! The company didn't even have to file 1113(c). ALPA just rolled over.

I didn't get to go hang with Prater and the boys that rolled into town because I was already home in the mainland, but from what I gather from everyone, most pilots left the meeting totally disillusioned with ALPA.

I am very sorry to hear that as it only is rubbing salt in a very bitter wound.

ALPA barely represents people that are paying and the millisecond they can not get any blood out of you they dump you like yesterdays trash.

It is all about money with ALPA.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I said it before, I say it again - ALPA is outdated and needs to go.

Here's a little something from the Islands of ALOHA:

As most of you know, Aloha Airlines ceased passenger operations. When they did that, they didn't FURLOUGH the pilots, instead they TERMINATED the pilots in direct violation of our CBA.

What's ALPA doing about it? Not a thing! The company didn't even have to file 1113(c). ALPA just rolled over.

I didn't get to go hang with Prater and the boys that rolled into town because I was already home in the mainland, but from what I gather from everyone, most pilots left the meeting totally disillusioned with ALPA.

....and you were put out of business because of a fellow ALPA carrier....Mesa....

ALPA has lost touch and until we threaten it's existance.....there will be no changes....

Now is the time....There is enough fury to change things.....

Take your ALPA PAC postage paid envelopes from the ALPA magazine and write your thoughts....send them to Herndon postage paid....

If you are on dues check off.....take yourself off dues checkoff and make them bill you.....then delay your payment.....Make them come and get it.......

If you still wear an ALPA pin....where it upside down...or don't wear it at all....

It's time for a Herndon tea party....

 

[FDJ2]

So when did ALPA decide to yield to management and let them determined when and if a merger occurs?

No, each MEC negotiates the parameters that require a merger through their own collective bargaining agreement. If you had negotiated language requiring a merger when you were acquired, it would have happened. If you fail to negotiate the requirement, don't blame others.

 

[FDJ2]

No, they're simply doing something that is monumentally stupid.

Yeah, who needs a pay raise? Imagine pilots negotiating with their management. How dare they.

They should have let the opportunity to get those pay raises and equity pass them by.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I love watching FDJ2 and PCL128 duke it out.....The ALPA cheerleader mudfight....:nuts:

ALPA has really painted themselves into a corner....They are using the same excuse they did against RJDC to defend this action.....This is going to be good......

 

[Poahi]

didn't FURLOUGH the pilots, instead they TERMINATED the pilots in direct violation of our CBA.

Did they reach an agreement yet? I heard the current cargo guys have until the end of the month.

 

[regionaltard]

Changing the President of ALPA won't solve this problem....

Necessary, but not sufficient.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Necessary, but not sufficient.

....what will change if you throw Prater out? We will have the same problems.....Time to split off from the legacy MEC's.....they want to go it alone...let them go it alone.....The problems here go much further than Prater......