Read This Please

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The across the board pay rates would never be allowed and neither would a national seniority list. The only way to save this business is to allow global companies to purchase the US airlines.

I like most of what you write, but we disagree on this. First, unions do have the right to establish a monopoly over labor - there are specific exemptions to the Sherman Anti Trust Act enabling unions to bargain collectively. Second, global money already owns US airlines. How much money do you think France, Italy, Germany, England, Canada and Brazil have out flying around on lease in the US? International Lease Finance, the World's largest aircraft owner may be the subsidiary of the American International Group, but did you know that AIG was founded as a Chinese Corporation and has a large part of its assets in Asia? Our Nation has thus far avoided foreign operational control of a US carrier - with good reason. For one, do you want to fly for Iran Air Express? Well, I don't think I want Iran Air, AfganaTran, or HezBlue operating over my house. And if we go to war, I hope Air France is willing to put its airplanes under US Service.

US Flag Carrier airlines have an important role in our economy, our security, and our sovereignty. I hope it stays that way.

The instability is an unfortunate part of a free and open market applying Adam Smith's invisible hand to the back sides of incompetent airline management. Some airlines are remarkably stable, Alaska, SouthWest, AirTran and dare I add to the list American, Continental and SkyWest. It can be done.

What we need is an effective national union and a way of getting all the Harvard consultants out of Delta, United and NorthWest.

 

[FlyingToIST]

The across the board pay rates would never be allowed and neither would a national seniority list. The only way to save this business is to allow global companies to purchase the US airlines.

This may sound like a good idea, but let's see what are the dangers of allowing this? What if, those companies said "we want to reduce the costs further and we want to have our pilots fly the planes".

I just got out of the software industry because IBMs, HPs, Accentures can bring their own people into the US and then complete the projects with those cheap bodies..

At least in aviation industry we don't have that.. yet...

 

[Flyingdutchman]

I say we ground our airplanes and strike on monday!!!

 

[jjlaw1]

I'm in.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

You get the ribs, Ill get us some beers! lets walk d*mn it!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To reiterate..again...

National Seniority List and Payscales are double edged swords. Sure they are good stop gaps during tough times but when the good times return you will be stuck at low pay and someone will always be senior than you to take your job on "The List". Finally, how will management agree to it? Why should they hire a super senior guy from "the list" who is not at first year pay.

SOS or National strikes don't work. Read up on history. Sure Dan Brannan, ALPA President wanna be will lead you to believe it is.. but it is not... If it is such a great idea then why hasn't it happened? Is FI smarter?

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Management needs to be executed..... literally
There should be a panel that does cost analysis on flights between cities and determines how much money per ticket for a given airplane is required. REGULATE ticket prices.
Fuel goes up = price goes up etc...
There should also be an FAA low standard for pilots.... say ATP mins to work in 121 operation. That will take care of the 500 hour kids who think they are entitled to a job cause daddy paid for ER.
If there is a shortage of qualified pilots then they will pay more to attract applicants as opposed to hiring people with less who have flight instructed for a few hundred hours and will take any jet job.
There should be a national seniority list. Guys with 10,000 hours of big jet time shouldnt have to play gear jockey to some pimple face kid with a fraction of experience just because his airline furloughed him. In other professisonal industries experience usually allows a person to further or move up not backwards
If unions dont get their teeth back they should be dissolved.
Flight attendants should be held to Girls Gone Wild standards and a 3 digit IQ
Anything more than 50 seats should be flown by mainline for mainline pay
Philly-Dallas isnt regional anymore
As well a 50 seat jet shouldnt be used on that route either. If you charge people what the ticket is worth you also cannot put them in those horrific little planes for so long.
Did I mention Flight attendants have to be hotter and smarter and ALL management should be executed?

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Im down!

 

[OldManPilot]

For the first time in along time I belive we have a really good thread going here.

Why shouldn't we govern ourselves much like the AMA (American Medical Association) governs itself? They decide where and how many attend medical schools (controlling growth and who is excepted). Plus they are able to also govern their actions such as license suspention etc...

Pilots should represent pilots... I am afraid that curren unions have too many political adjendas to represent us faithfully and truthfully...

My $.02

P.S. sorry about the grammer

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why shouldn't we govern ourselves much like the AMA (American Medical Association) governs itself? They decide where and how many attend medical schools (controlling growth and who is excepted). Plus they are able to also govern their actions such as license suspention etc...

Because we are blue collar labor.. we are trade unionist and doctors are not...

 

[Resocha]

Part of the problem involves believing that pilots, simply by nature of a shared career interest, are part of some grand brotherhood. Instead of a collective interest, we have hundreds of thousands of conflicting interests. Any person would sell out another person for their own personal success. The United pilots did it best when they disgraced their retirees.

So instead of wasting effort in a big group hug, my suggestion is to seek financial success elsewhere, and fly for enjoyment. The liberation of not relying on airline management, and competition from every 100-hour dreamer, not only makes the job more enjoyable, but gives you leverage when management wants another pay cut.

 

[XJohXJ]

.....

 

[Gofish]

There should be a panel that does cost analysis on flights between cities and determines how much money per ticket for a given airplane is required. REGULATE ticket prices.


There was...it used to be called the Civil Aeronautics Board.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

I like what your saying. I'm curious how much we as pilots will have to "force" the market into higher wages. Right now we get paid so little because we take the job. Its the free market system, if management can fill the seats they dont need to give us anything. If theres a surplus of pilots (or anything) then the price of that labor/goods needs to go down to make up for the market imbalance. I think that the "race to the bottom" has partly been due to easier to fly planes. Pilots with 500 hours can pass training, most of the time anyway. There was a time that you needed 2500 hours to get a flying job, now you only need 500, sometimes less. That says to me that qualified pilots are getting harder to find. I'm sure the training dept. would rather have 3000+ hour applicants. The management would rather pay extra into one time training, rather that pay higher wages for more experienced pilots.

I know that the flight school I went to has the lowest enrollment of new students in its 35 year history. The public hears about all the bankupt, no pension, 50% pay cut airlines and aren't going into this field anymore. our airline is understaffed. If theres an airline that doesn't have rampant junior manning and reasingments, I havn't talked to them. I know our airline is setting all time record load factors. If the planes are flying, and theres no one qualified to do the job, wages will have to go up. Where I used to fly freight we couldn't get a pilot with 1200 hours who could fly a plane, so they upped the wages and filled the seats. The free market system at work. Anyone remember paying 8k for your job? Who's doing that anymore? I think were on our way to, if not already at, a pilot shortage. If thats true then higher wages will have to follow.

I'm not opposed to the idea's posted above. I'd go along if its organized. I just wonder if it's neccesary.

 

[aussiefly]

This is a great thread guys. BTW im REALLY down with the ribs and beer

I wonder what the experience would be if you would consider an airline where the pilots where actually the majority stock holders. How would this affect profitability and attitude when you own a chunk of the action. And by chink I dont mean the small amounts in stock that we get now.

Maybe ALPA could strike from within. For example conglomerating vast amounts of capital together and purchasing a large enough chunk to guarantee a seat on the board of the company, 10-15% should do it.

Now obviously that wouldnt work with some of the larger airlines but start thinking about some of the smaller regionals. You could absolutely exercise a large amount of control of the management actions.

We all know that despite what some managements will have you beleive there is indeed money to be made in aviation. Without stripping of the assets some of these companies would still be profitable.

This is really just me musing but I've often wondered what the final outcome would be with an employee buyout of a controlling portion of an airline. How would it work out you think would labor practices be improved ????