Read This Please

[flyhighordie]

I have not checked this board for some time and spent the last day reading back all kinds of stuff people have posted from contract stealing to rfp's to what pilot group is bad and who is good. what is extremely agonizing is i am realizing each day that we as pilot professionals are losing our ethics and allegiance to one another. we take stabs at one another when in fact the CORPORATE manager is sipping the coffee taking long lunches being able to take the afternoon off to go to the dentist making the decisions to undercut another company for the simple pleasure of placing a stake in the ground and calling it success.

what do we do???? we take it, for what reason i don't know besides the love of flying or the simple fact that we enjoy the abuse. my father is a retired pilot from the pool of guys where it used to be a respected rewarded profession. 15 days off, good pay, good benefits. i talked to him about this and he feels we as pilots are doing it to ourselves. WE ARE!!!!!!!!!!

we blame delta for stress and fatigue, we blame CHQ for taking on new flying, but unless we could all unite and make that useless ALPA union and dues woth somethig and perhaps all of us across the board decide not to go to work one day, i think it would create a national crisis. i think the government would wake up and realize that the fuel tax imposed on airlines makes it nearly imposible to opperate, and until the general public in this country realizes that paying $199 roundtrip to Disney World is the same price payed in the 80's and are willing to pay at least an inflated price on pace with everything else such as milk and bread, the airlines will compete for the customer and take it out of us. its useless for us to be angry with each other, its time to reflect and look at what our schedules have become and our duty times and divide that paycheck and realize we are far below the poverty level. don't blame GO JET or MEsa, they would not be in business without pilots. management gets paid equally everywhere wheather you manage a record shop, a bank or an airline. LETS blame ourselves for a change, look in the mirror in the morning and realize we are supposed to be rational, cognitive individuals equipped with good decission making ability and willigness to take responsibility for our actions and the lives we transport.

in closure, I blame myself, and if i get enough feedback out of this post, i will start a website, no membership required, non profit, to see what we can do for ourselves and our fellow men and women, without blaming each other or the companies. we have the contracts we know the contracts the airlines can't fly without us, and ATP can't train a pilot in 90 days like they claim.

write any thoughts, but don't blame any company for screwing us, write a positive approach to what we can do, and we can DO IT>>>>

 

[flyboyike]

Amen!

 

[Prop2Jet]

I agree, yet the problem is old school, how are we to change? Shall it be with a small number of followers hopefully gathering enough momentum to change the greater issues we seek to impact?

It seems as if once the snowball started down the hill it has become near to impossible to reverse. I am not saying lets not start, I am just saying this is a huge task and one which requires huge sacrafices and centralization of a single ideology for all pilots. I praise you for your thoughts but I can't imagine how to start such a "movement" of change.

P2J

 

[jjlaw1]

I don't think it would take a great deal of effort.
All we need is across the board pay rates for the airplanes we fly. If the pilot costs are the same, management will be forced to improve the company to win "new flying" and grow the company. Besides, when have pilots ever bid on new flying or growth. We don't! If pilots stood together, we could take these so called pay cuts for growth out of the equation. Let missmanagement find cuts from their wastefulness and get their hands out of my pocket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ArcticFlier]

All we need is across the board pay rates for the airplanes we fly.

How do you propose that gets done? I think it's going to be much harder than you think. Too many 500 hour wonders out there wanting your seat for less than you make. The only way this gets done is through one, nationwide seniority list a la a guild. not what we have now. ALPA groups stabbing ALPA groups in the back for "their" flying.

If the pilot costs are the same, management will be forced to improve the company to win "new flying" and grow the company.

Agreed.

Besides, when have pilots ever bid on new flying or growth. We don't! If pilots stood together, we could take these so called pay cuts for growth out of the equation. Let missmanagement find cuts from their wastefulness and get their hands out of my pocket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed again, but I still contend that without one seniority list, it'll never happen in our lifetime.


AF

 

[Gofish]

Flyhighordie speaks the truth.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I'm in. I'd like to see this thread grow at least half as long as the last "so and so stole my flying!@" bitchfest. Not holding my breath.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The across the board pay rates would never be allowed and neither would a national seniority list. The only way to save this business is to allow global companies to purchase the US airlines. That would ease some of the market influences that destablize this industry. It really isn't about pilot pay, but more about companies that have a lower cost structure. The market value of tickets was below that of the operational costs. The companies went through and are now generating profit on the backs of their employees and creditors. The future of this business is all LCC's and this is what has happened. Now the next company to go lower will start the process all over again.

Having a national pay rate is a dangerous thing for pilots because unless it is under federal law, you leave your company open to attack. You will even have less job stability and the process will be much much worse for everyone. This is a deregulated airline business, and this is what it has become.

 

[jjlaw1]

For starters, ALPA (or who ever) needs to have a standerd contract ( for the most part). I would like to see a standard pay rate, duty rigs, days off ect. All I am saying is lets take the wip sawing out of managements hands. That is the only power they have over us. I think it is time to take that away from them.

 

[jjlaw1]

I don't

 

[flyhighordie]

its not just about pay guys what i am seeing is just as previously posted ALPA groups stabbing ALPA groups, that is the whole point, ALPA is a myth, its a place we pay dues to paper pushers, where paper pushers, people sending faxes make more money, have better work rules, can call out when their kid was crying all night with an ear infection, where we have to call it a sick day. when was the last time you needed the day off called crew scheduling and were able to be honest???? they can, we can't do anything but fly these machines and feed the monster till when??? i think about the commair guys, pilot error, at least that is what it seems like, but we don't know all the crap that pilled on those guys plate. what is up with these standup lines. i drink a pot of coffee to pull it through. why ???? on today's show this morning Matt Lauer's jaw dropped when he asked a guy about an airline schedule. he lost it when the guy told him 8 hrs flight 16 hour duty day. quote" you mean to tell me, a pilot will fly a plane coming in for landing on 16 hrs of duty?"" i hope from the bottom of my heart that people will think about what i wrote, some responded positively already, this can be done, ALPA will not be the answer. as i suggested we can start a site to promote unity and take it to the MAN. the 500 hour pilot will not be able to fill our jobs, an FO can't fly it by themselves. the comair thing will start a lot of talk, people don't know what we have to put up with. my brother's best friends are all journalists with tons of connections to NY times and such, they love to get a grip on something like this. IT CAN BE DONE, i have to believe it will, otherwise we will end up working 5 days on/ 2 days off, 14-16 hour duty days making peanuts. a panhandeler in NYC makes on averate of $30,000/yr its a fact. average colleger grad makes $31000/yr. most of us have degrees, tons of money of training and we let these monsters turn against each other. its not an overnight thing, i know, i am realistic, but a well crafted website to promote unity and collect good facts can get it rolling. i think about it all the time, what would happen if we all call out sick just for one day. no mail delivered, no people, no supplies nothing, it would be just like the web collapsing for one day. we are far more needed in society than we give ourselves credit for. think back when the ATC went on strike in the 80's. it sure got ronnie's attention. however we are not govt employees. you can't train a 777 captain in 2 months, hell i love the look on people's faces when they see a 22 yr old in the right seat and ask "are you old enough to fly this thing" spread the vibe we can do it. airline pilot national sick day. APNSD.com sounds good doesn't it???

 

[propilot1983]

Being a police officer used to be the same way...close knit group of men and women and would back any officer 100%. Now if an officer makes one bad decision, their brothers and sisters turn their backs. It's everywhere and I'm noticing the trend...what's changed? Our generation not having to deal with the hard knocks of life that our grandparents and parents had to deal with in the late 20's early 30's with the depression and how people had to stick together in order to survive? I don't know the answer. I know this is a different situation, but are kind of the same problem in two different industries. I support the idea though of getting things back to the way they used to be.

 

[jjlaw1]

I think the forst step is to realize it is us against them. Not pilot group against pilot group.

 

[flyhighordie]

JJLAW1 has it right its us against them.

Unions came about to prevent explotation of labor, ie women paid less wages, child labor etc. Unions are a term of the past, they don't do what they used to do. We need one union with ONE negotiator of contracts with ONE lawyer/accountant. its a lot simpler than we think. Equipment, seniority, avergage leg length, time away from base, etc all included in that formula for negotiations. and when those are not delivered we strike for all the pilots, National Sick Day for all of us, otherwise how do we expect to keep the guys from inking S@#t with no backup. heck like i said its not even a strike, i have a bank of about 150 hrs of sick time, don't most??

 

[~~~^~~~]

Flyhighordie:

You should set up a web site - similar to http://www.thepetitionsite.com where pilots could register their airline and their preference for representation. You could also do a little research and put up a page with information on how to decertify the current representatives and how to obtain representational status for an alternative union.

I am an ALPA supporter because I believe our best hope is to take ALPA back from the narrow interests that have hijacked our union. ALPA is the de facto national union - however - ALPA has made horrendous, intentional, mistakes which have harmed every pilot and every member in the United States.

I'm all for a grass roots movement to scare ALPA into being responsive to its members, or for getting rid of ALPA and forming a new union based on the principles ALPA used to stand for - for one - the elimination of alter ego competition through inclusive scope within the brand.

Good luck to you!

 

[~~~^~~~]

The across the board pay rates would never be allowed and neither would a national seniority list. The only way to save this business is to allow global companies to purchase the US airlines.

I like most of what you write, but we disagree on this. First, unions do have the right to establish a monopoly over labor - there are specific exemptions to the Sherman Anti Trust Act enabling unions to bargain collectively. Second, global money already owns US airlines. How much money do you think France, Italy, Germany, England, Canada and Brazil have out flying around on lease in the US? International Lease Finance, the World's largest aircraft owner may be the subsidiary of the American International Group, but did you know that AIG was founded as a Chinese Corporation and has a large part of its assets in Asia? Our Nation has thus far avoided foreign operational control of a US carrier - with good reason. For one, do you want to fly for Iran Air Express? Well, I don't think I want Iran Air, AfganaTran, or HezBlue operating over my house. And if we go to war, I hope Air France is willing to put its airplanes under US Service.

US Flag Carrier airlines have an important role in our economy, our security, and our sovereignty. I hope it stays that way.

The instability is an unfortunate part of a free and open market applying Adam Smith's invisible hand to the back sides of incompetent airline management. Some airlines are remarkably stable, Alaska, SouthWest, AirTran and dare I add to the list American, Continental and SkyWest. It can be done.

What we need is an effective national union and a way of getting all the Harvard consultants out of Delta, United and NorthWest.

 

[FlyingToIST]

The across the board pay rates would never be allowed and neither would a national seniority list. The only way to save this business is to allow global companies to purchase the US airlines.

This may sound like a good idea, but let's see what are the dangers of allowing this? What if, those companies said "we want to reduce the costs further and we want to have our pilots fly the planes".

I just got out of the software industry because IBMs, HPs, Accentures can bring their own people into the US and then complete the projects with those cheap bodies..

At least in aviation industry we don't have that.. yet...

 

[Flyingdutchman]

I say we ground our airplanes and strike on monday!!!

 

[jjlaw1]

I'm in.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

You get the ribs, Ill get us some beers! lets walk d*mn it!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To reiterate..again...

National Seniority List and Payscales are double edged swords. Sure they are good stop gaps during tough times but when the good times return you will be stuck at low pay and someone will always be senior than you to take your job on "The List". Finally, how will management agree to it? Why should they hire a super senior guy from "the list" who is not at first year pay.

SOS or National strikes don't work. Read up on history. Sure Dan Brannan, ALPA President wanna be will lead you to believe it is.. but it is not... If it is such a great idea then why hasn't it happened? Is FI smarter?

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Management needs to be executed..... literally
There should be a panel that does cost analysis on flights between cities and determines how much money per ticket for a given airplane is required. REGULATE ticket prices.
Fuel goes up = price goes up etc...
There should also be an FAA low standard for pilots.... say ATP mins to work in 121 operation. That will take care of the 500 hour kids who think they are entitled to a job cause daddy paid for ER.
If there is a shortage of qualified pilots then they will pay more to attract applicants as opposed to hiring people with less who have flight instructed for a few hundred hours and will take any jet job.
There should be a national seniority list. Guys with 10,000 hours of big jet time shouldnt have to play gear jockey to some pimple face kid with a fraction of experience just because his airline furloughed him. In other professisonal industries experience usually allows a person to further or move up not backwards
If unions dont get their teeth back they should be dissolved.
Flight attendants should be held to Girls Gone Wild standards and a 3 digit IQ
Anything more than 50 seats should be flown by mainline for mainline pay
Philly-Dallas isnt regional anymore
As well a 50 seat jet shouldnt be used on that route either. If you charge people what the ticket is worth you also cannot put them in those horrific little planes for so long.
Did I mention Flight attendants have to be hotter and smarter and ALL management should be executed?

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Im down!

 

[OldManPilot]

For the first time in along time I belive we have a really good thread going here.

Why shouldn't we govern ourselves much like the AMA (American Medical Association) governs itself? They decide where and how many attend medical schools (controlling growth and who is excepted). Plus they are able to also govern their actions such as license suspention etc...

Pilots should represent pilots... I am afraid that curren unions have too many political adjendas to represent us faithfully and truthfully...

My $.02

P.S. sorry about the grammer

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why shouldn't we govern ourselves much like the AMA (American Medical Association) governs itself? They decide where and how many attend medical schools (controlling growth and who is excepted). Plus they are able to also govern their actions such as license suspention etc...

Because we are blue collar labor.. we are trade unionist and doctors are not...

 

[Resocha]

Part of the problem involves believing that pilots, simply by nature of a shared career interest, are part of some grand brotherhood. Instead of a collective interest, we have hundreds of thousands of conflicting interests. Any person would sell out another person for their own personal success. The United pilots did it best when they disgraced their retirees.

So instead of wasting effort in a big group hug, my suggestion is to seek financial success elsewhere, and fly for enjoyment. The liberation of not relying on airline management, and competition from every 100-hour dreamer, not only makes the job more enjoyable, but gives you leverage when management wants another pay cut.

 

[XJohXJ]

.....

 

[Gofish]

There should be a panel that does cost analysis on flights between cities and determines how much money per ticket for a given airplane is required. REGULATE ticket prices.


There was...it used to be called the Civil Aeronautics Board.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

I like what your saying. I'm curious how much we as pilots will have to "force" the market into higher wages. Right now we get paid so little because we take the job. Its the free market system, if management can fill the seats they dont need to give us anything. If theres a surplus of pilots (or anything) then the price of that labor/goods needs to go down to make up for the market imbalance. I think that the "race to the bottom" has partly been due to easier to fly planes. Pilots with 500 hours can pass training, most of the time anyway. There was a time that you needed 2500 hours to get a flying job, now you only need 500, sometimes less. That says to me that qualified pilots are getting harder to find. I'm sure the training dept. would rather have 3000+ hour applicants. The management would rather pay extra into one time training, rather that pay higher wages for more experienced pilots.

I know that the flight school I went to has the lowest enrollment of new students in its 35 year history. The public hears about all the bankupt, no pension, 50% pay cut airlines and aren't going into this field anymore. our airline is understaffed. If theres an airline that doesn't have rampant junior manning and reasingments, I havn't talked to them. I know our airline is setting all time record load factors. If the planes are flying, and theres no one qualified to do the job, wages will have to go up. Where I used to fly freight we couldn't get a pilot with 1200 hours who could fly a plane, so they upped the wages and filled the seats. The free market system at work. Anyone remember paying 8k for your job? Who's doing that anymore? I think were on our way to, if not already at, a pilot shortage. If thats true then higher wages will have to follow.

I'm not opposed to the idea's posted above. I'd go along if its organized. I just wonder if it's neccesary.

 

[aussiefly]

This is a great thread guys. BTW im REALLY down with the ribs and beer

I wonder what the experience would be if you would consider an airline where the pilots where actually the majority stock holders. How would this affect profitability and attitude when you own a chunk of the action. And by chink I dont mean the small amounts in stock that we get now.

Maybe ALPA could strike from within. For example conglomerating vast amounts of capital together and purchasing a large enough chunk to guarantee a seat on the board of the company, 10-15% should do it.

Now obviously that wouldnt work with some of the larger airlines but start thinking about some of the smaller regionals. You could absolutely exercise a large amount of control of the management actions.

We all know that despite what some managements will have you beleive there is indeed money to be made in aviation. Without stripping of the assets some of these companies would still be profitable.

This is really just me musing but I've often wondered what the final outcome would be with an employee buyout of a controlling portion of an airline. How would it work out you think would labor practices be improved ????