Read and follow RNAV arrival and departure procedures carefully at SLC

[ksu_aviator]

The new RNAV arrival and departure procedures at SLC have apparently caused some violations, especially within the last 10 days (WEVIC One, for example http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0801/00365WEVIC.PDF ). Note the speeds and altitude restrictions at various fixes. These are being disregarded and getting some crews into trouble.

In addition, here are some notes from the SLC tower that I am passing along:

Note 1
---As soon as practical after takeoff, all aircraft must accelerate to 230 kts, do not comply with speeds on the departure until given the instruction to "resume normal speed".

[AIM paragraph 4-4-12 F NOTE‑​

An instruction to "resume normal speed" does not delete speed restrictions that are contained in a
published procedure, unless specifically stated by ATC, nor does it relieve the pilot of those speed restrictions which are applicable to 14 CFR Section 91.117.]
From SLC tower
Pilots will be issued 230 knots via PDC or verbally with their clearance. They are expected to maintain that speed indefinitely until the departure controller issues something else - even if they pass a waypoint where a speed of 250 knots is authorized. (Don't worry, you won't be kept slow for long!) The speed restriction issued on the ground (230 knots) trumps all SID published speeds unless the controller assigns "resume normal speed" - in which case the pilot must fly the speed on the procedure. (That's in the AIM and in the AT handbook).
We've briefed our controllers that there will probably be some confusion among pilots with "resume normal speed" so they'll usually just assign the speed they need or say "delete speed restrictions". "Delete Speed Restrictions" allows the pilot to fly at whatever speed they –want regardless of the procedure.

Note 2
---Upon initial contact with Departure Control, state which departure you are currently flying".(Tower will also ask what your first fix is. this is expected for the first 30 days)

Note 3
---Clearance will not give you an Altitude in your clearance.



Happy flying... CC

Those notes don't make any sense. How are you suppose to follow them, are they even in english?

 

[dash_trash]

East Coast?

Very similar to many operations in the NE ... just making fun of how difficult they make things when they have 10x the space available, as we do in the NE.

 

[CelticCitation]

The east coast doesn't have very many 9000' peaks within 10 miles of the airport. There are a lot of east coast airplanes on 9000' peaks within 10 miles of the airport.

Our POI (SLC FSDO) told me they have been tied up "talking" to flight crews who have had altitude deviations since the new procedures have been implemented. He said that there are a number of crews that were following the altitudes on the FMS databases, and weren't paying attention to the paper charts, and missed some level offs toward opposite direction traffic.

I will agree that SLC makes things way more complex than needed. I have been delayed way more there than even on the dreaded EAST COAST...

 

[CitationCapt]

Speeds

Good post CEltic Citation.

As for the poster who wrote this, which I didn't reply to his question properly:

Originally Posted by THE Flying Ace
I have a question that I hope can be answered. I have looked at the new SID's out of SLC and in our Citation II, I am not sure if we can meet the altitude restrictions with the speeds given at the various fixes. My question is, can I fly at a slower indicated airspeed in between fixes so I can get the altitude, then reduce climb rate as to speed up to cross the fix at the appropriate speed and altitude? Then of course pitch up at a reduced airspeed to make the next fix/altitude restriction and again reduce climb rate to cross next fix at altitude/speed requirements.

My response is that ATC will bark at you if you mess up their in-trail spacing. If they issue you 230 kts in the clearance, be at that speed until they issue you another speed. If they issue you "Normal Speed", comply with the speeds issued on the chart . If they say "cancel speed restriction", then you can fly at whatever speed you want.

CC

 

[machaf]

So much for RNAV's making things 'easier'.

 

[AZ Typed]

Slc

SLC always makes things harder than they need to be

You are not kidding. They are in the middle of nowhere and you'd think you're in the middle of LGA, TEB, JFK, and EWR all combined. SLC has the 2nd worst ATC system next to IAD. Their capabilities are way below acceptable in SLC.

My last trip there, 100 plus miles of visibilty, 3 airplanes on the frequency, and ATC vectors us into a SKW CRJ - we caught it, but that mistake was followed by a 12 mile final to the west runway, when GA needs the east runway.

Incompetence at it's finest in SLC.

 

[Dinger]

You are not kidding. They are in the middle of nowhere and you'd think you're in the middle of LGA, TEB, JFK, and EWR all combined. SLC has the 2nd worst ATC system next to IAD. Their capabilities are way below acceptable in SLC.

My last trip there, 100 plus miles of visibilty, 3 airplanes on the frequency, and ATC vectors us into a SKW CRJ - we caught it, but that mistake was followed by a 12 mile final to the west runway, when GA needs the east runway.

Incompetence at it's finest in SLC.

With your time and experience, I can only assume you have it all figured out by now! Maybe you should issue an Advisory Circular for SLC to followy so they don't screw it up anymore. I imagine the 12 mile final to the "wrong" runway was not a mistake, assuming you come accross on frequency as you did in your post here.

I wish I had the big picture...I asked for it for Christmas, but got a new set of golf clubs instead.

Although you fly on the "super freaky and dangerous" East Coast, you are not that cool.

 

[CelticCitation]

Arizona is now on the East Coast. That must have something to do with the Giants stealing one from the Pats.

SLC does things the hard way, but in their defence, they do have a number of unique to the West issues. Besides the the aforementioned terrain, there is also a great deal of military airspace that complicates things greatly.

A former controller buddy of mine tells the story of a pre-TAWS 727 getting the wrong frequency (pilot error) while on base headed directly toward a mountain at 6000ft. By the time they somehow raised him he was seconds from impact, and was given an immediate climbing turn, barely clearing terrain. This incident, and I'm sure numerous like this, have lead to the seemingly rediculous complications in the airspace.

Also, reading the lost comm procedures make things a little more clear. You are always told to expect the western most runway, when you always want the east side for GA. Nearly always, 17 or 35 finally gets assigned, but in a lost comm situation, they don't want you to plow through the other active runways.

These new procedures are hopefully the first wave toward an improvement. After years of Salt Lake 9, and having to enter the the 005 at 60 manually into the FMS, we might get some usable procedures.

Then again, maybe not.

 

[CitationCapt]

Slc

Good points Celtic C.

SLC controllers have taken me out of binds, especially around lines of thunderstorms on arrivals and departures. In addition, the approach controllers have done the same and have worked with me on requests for runways 17 or 35 when arrival traffic is busy.

I also believe that once we work with these new procedures they will become old hat. We just need to make certain that we meet what we read off these charts.

CC

 

[AZ Typed]

With your time and experience, I can only assume you have it all figured out by now!

Where did I claim to have it all figured out?

Maybe you should issue an Advisory Circular for SLC to followy so they don't screw it up anymore. I imagine the 12 mile final to the "wrong" runway was not a mistake, assuming you come accross on frequency as you did in your post here.

Where did I say they made a mistake?

I wish I had the big picture...I asked for it for Christmas, but got a new set of golf clubs instead.

Great (?!?!?)

Although you fly on the "super freaky and dangerous" East Coast, you are not that cool.

Where did the post claim I fly on the East Coast? Where did the post say I was "that cool"?

I was going spend a lot of time on a response to this, buy why. Grow up.