QX sim ride - What would you have done

[DrewBlows]

Here's the situation. I recently interviewed with QX but didn't get the job. The oral part went okay (could have gone better, but I got to the sim). The sim went horribly, I had a hard time holding a precise heading and altitude, missed a few radio calls, and was generally uncomfortable with the single pilot IFR situation. I haven't flown a small airplane in a year and a half and rarely flew single pilot IFR when I did fly small airplanes. Anyway those mistakes are basic and I'll be able to fix them with an hour or two in a FRASCA 142. What concerns me are a couple procedures which I want to make sure I get right should I get a second opportunity to interview.

First the obsticle departure procedure from Walla Walla, WA (ALW) (p. 15 left side).

ALW Runway Diagram

I departed RW 20 at ALW. The DP says to turn left, but also says to intercept the ALW 195 radial which would pricipitate a right turn from RW 20 (RW heading 198, VOR located to the left of the runway), then says to climb to 2500' before iniciating a right turn back to the VOR, and cross at or above the MEA or MCA. After takeoff I turned to a few degrees to the left, climbed to 2500' and made a right turn toward the VOR, before proceding on course. I was climbing pretty fast and was at my cruising altitude by the time I reached the VOR. Should I have turned right to intercept the ALW 195 radial and then turned right, back to the VOR?

My flightplan took me to Pendleton, OR (PDT) whre I shot the NDB-A, went missed and held at the LOM at 4800' as published (which is also the LOM for the ILS 25). While in the hold I was assigned 5000' and cleared for the ILS 25. Since I was already inbound in the hold at the LOM (which is also an IAF), I proceded to the LOM turned outbound and descended to 4800' (the lowest altitude outbound for the procedure turn). My plan was to go outbound for 1 minute, turn inbound, descend to 4300' and intercept the glideslope. Unfortunately, it tooke me some time to intercept the LOC inbound (due to wind or poor heading control, I'm not sure), realizing that I would not be able to intercept the GS from my postion, I informed ATC that I would need another turn in the hold to get it right. At this point I was told to intercept the GS from above (at this point, well above), which I would never do in real life (not stable). But I did it anyway, and landed. After the sim he asked me why I continued the hold after I was cleared for the ILS, to which I relplied that I did the hold as a course reversal in lieu of the published barbed procedure turn (to the best of my knowledge then and now this is correct). He told me that when navigating out of radar coverage I had to do the published procedure turn. I felt otherwise, but at that point didn't feel that an argument over it was in my best interest.

I found out a few days later that I didn't get the job (not unexpected after the sim evaluation) and one of the points mentioned in the debrief was the "diffence of opinion" about the ILS procedure. Again I didn't think that an argument was in my best interest because I would like to interview again, and feel that I have a much better chance the next time.

Which leads to my question. Assuming that I am able to interview again, how should I do these procedures? Should I turn right to intercept the ALW 195 radial on departure from ALW (contrary to the DP)? How should I do the procedure turn for the ILS if I'm already holding at the LOM/FAF?

Any insight from sucessful applicants would be helpful, I'm hoping to get another interview early next year and would like to get it right the second time.

 

[rgnlwannabe]

From what I gather without the approach plate in front of me (link did not work), after you are done holding you HAVE to go outbound and do the procedure turn when in not in radar contact, so I am pretty sure the approach was done incorrectly. If I were actually in Walla Walla doing this sort of scenario, I would have done the pt.

 

[strega7]

intercept the ALW 195 radial which would pricipitate a right turn from RW 20 (RW heading 198, VOR located to the left of the runway),

Isn't the 195 radial to the LEFT of RW heading 198 when departing RW20? That's why the DP has you turn left so that you can intercept it. Are you saying that you never intercepted the 195 radial and simply flew a 198 heading until 2500'? Or were the winds such that by the time you were airborne you needed to come right to grab the 195 radial?

 

[Singlecoil]

Isn't the 195 radial to the LEFT of RW heading 198 when departing RW20? That's why the DP has you turn left so that you can intercept it. Are you saying that you never intercepted the 195 radial and simply flew a 198 heading until 2500'? Or were the winds such that by the time you were airborne you needed to come right to grab the 195 radial?

I second strega7's opinion here on the departure. The 195 radial is to your left when departing off Rwy 20. Granted it isn't much, but they have to tell you which way to go there I think. Yes, you track the radial to 2500, then turn right direct the VOR. You don't just hold a heading to 2500.

As for the ILS, you did it exactly as I would have and I was a QX captain for 3 years. There is no requirement to do a "barbed" type procedure turn in non-radar. You can do a 90-270, do it out of the hold like you did, or do a teardrop (which is perfect for Kelowna by the way, who wants to go all the way to LARGN?). Your instructor is wrong or there was something else that happened that you weren't clear on. Were you doing right turns in the hold? Maybe your hold was really bad so that you were way off the localizer coarse. In that case, intercepting the localizer outbound wouldn't have been a bad idea, just to make sure you knew where you were. Maybe he saw that your hold was botched, then you tried to do the ILS out of the hold even though you weren't doing it right and said something. Holding at an NDB with wind takes practice, that is for sure.
But for anyone to say that you can't do a hold in lieu of a procedure turn is not correct.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

Here's the situation. I recently interviewed with QX but didn't get the job. The oral part went okay (could have gone better, but I got to the sim). The sim went horribly, I had a hard time holding a precise heading and altitude, missed a few radio calls, and was generally uncomfortable with the single pilot IFR situation. I haven't flown a small airplane in a year and a half and rarely flew single pilot IFR when I did fly small airplanes. Anyway those mistakes are basic and I'll be able to fix them with an hour or two in a FRASCA 142. What concerns me are a couple procedures which I want to make sure I get right should I get a second opportunity to interview.

First the obsticle departure procedure from Walla Walla, WA (ALW) (p. 15 left side).

ALW Runway Diagram

I departed RW 20 at ALW. The DP says to turn left, but also says to intercept the ALW 195 radial which would pricipitate a right turn from RW 20 (RW heading 198, VOR located to the left of the runway), then says to climb to 2500' before iniciating a right turn back to the VOR, and cross at or above the MEA or MCA. After takeoff I turned to a few degrees to the left, climbed to 2500' and made a right turn toward the VOR, before proceding on course. I was climbing pretty fast and was at my cruising altitude by the time I reached the VOR. Should I have turned right to intercept the ALW 195 radial and then turned right, back to the VOR?

My flightplan took me to Pendleton, OR (PDT) whre I shot the NDB-A, went missed and held at the LOM at 4800' as published (which is also the LOM for the ILS 25). While in the hold I was assigned 5000' and cleared for the ILS 25. Since I was already inbound in the hold at the LOM (which is also an IAF), I proceded to the LOM turned outbound and descended to 4800' (the lowest altitude outbound for the procedure turn). My plan was to go outbound for 1 minute, turn inbound, descend to 4300' and intercept the glideslope. Unfortunately, it tooke me some time to intercept the LOC inbound (due to wind or poor heading control, I'm not sure), realizing that I would not be able to intercept the GS from my postion, I informed ATC that I would need another turn in the hold to get it right. At this point I was told to intercept the GS from above (at this point, well above), which I would never do in real life (not stable). But I did it anyway, and landed. After the sim he asked me why I continued the hold after I was cleared for the ILS, to which I relplied that I did the hold as a course reversal in lieu of the published barbed procedure turn (to the best of my knowledge then and now this is correct). He told me that when navigating out of radar coverage I had to do the published procedure turn. I felt otherwise, but at that point didn't feel that an argument over it was in my best interest.

I found out a few days later that I didn't get the job (not unexpected after the sim evaluation) and one of the points mentioned in the debrief was the "diffence of opinion" about the ILS procedure. Again I didn't think that an argument was in my best interest because I would like to interview again, and feel that I have a much better chance the next time.

Which leads to my question. Assuming that I am able to interview again, how should I do these procedures? Should I turn right to intercept the ALW 195 radial on departure from ALW (contrary to the DP)? How should I do the procedure turn for the ILS if I'm already holding at the LOM/FAF?

Any insight from sucessful applicants would be helpful, I'm hoping to get another interview early next year and would like to get it right the second time.

It looks to me like if you hold at the NDB and try to turn inbound after only one minute outbound in the hold that would set you up to be high, on glide at the outer marker per the plate is 2868. That gives you 2000 ft to lose. 1500ft if you started descending outbound. I think it would have been easier to set up for the approach if you had gone outbound on the loc. and have done the pt within 18nm of PDT VOR. This would have given you time to intercept the glide slope and start a stabilized approach.

 

[DrewBlows]

On second look, I guess that it would be a slight left turn to intercept the 195 radial. I was at 2500 feet so fast i never intercepted it, i think that procedure went okay. In a slower climbing airplane I probably would have had to intercept it. My hold was okay (again, my attitude control pretty much sucked the whole time, but I can fix that). He was pretty adament that I had to do exactly what was published (45 degree barb), and I wasn't going to agrue. I've looked at it many times since then and would do it the same way every time. I can't see leaving the FAF to reintercept it when I'm already there. I'm not sure that was the final nail in the coffin of my performance or not, but I want to make sure that I do it right (or at least as expected) if I get another shot. I have access to a FRASCA 142, and since I'm being furloughed in January I should have time to practice in it (I didn't last time I interviewed).

Thanks for the replies, keep them comming.

 

[DrewBlows]

It looks to me like if you hold at the NDB and try to turn inbound after only one minute outbound in the hold that would set you up to be high, on glide at the outer marker per the plate is 2868. That gives you 2000 ft to lose. 1500ft if you started descending outbound. I think it would have been easier to set up for the approach if you had gone outbound on the loc. and have done the pt within 18nm of PDT VOR. This would have given you time to intercept the glide slope and start a stabilized approach.

It did in fact leave me high. So, since I was already inbound on the LOC, how should I have turned around to go outbound, if I were to do the published PT? I realized that I was high after the first turn (probably should have figured that out sooner) in the hold and decided to try it again, but go out furthur. I think that it would have worked as long as I stayed within 10 nm of the LOM. If I did the published PT wouldn't I have encounted the same problem? Afterall I would have only gone outbound for a minute, which would have put me at approximately the same intercept point (or maybe not, I did have trouble intercepting the LOC inbound).

 

[turbinesurgeon]

It did in fact leave me high. So, since I was already inbound on the LOC, how should I have turned around to go outbound, if I were to do the published PT? I realized that I was high after the first turn (probably should have figured that out sooner) in the hold and decided to try it again, but go out furthur. I think that it would have worked as long as I stayed within 10 nm of the LOM. If I did the published PT wouldn't I have encounted the same problem? Afterall I would have only gone outbound for a minute, which would have put me at approximately the same intercept point (or maybe not, I did have trouble intercepting the LOC inbound).

You could do a teardrop outbound (which keeps you in the protected side) to track the loc outbound and use DME to give yourself enough time to descend, do the pt, and intercept the glide and now it gives you time to insure the glide is accurate at the OM. I have and interview with them on Wed. I will let you know if it works.

 

[dashtrash]

From what I gather without the approach plate in front of me (link did not work), after you are done holding you HAVE to go outbound and do the procedure turn when in not in radar contact, so I am pretty sure the approach was done incorrectly. If I were actually in Walla Walla doing this sort of scenario, I would have done the pt.

Would you mind backing that up with an FAR or AIM section?

 

[StarChk20]

Just by looking at the approach I can tell you that if you try to start the approach right out of the hold, you will be high. the holding alt is 4300 and the GS alt at the LOM is 2868. Not sure what you were flying but at 1 min inbound at even 150 knots would put you 2 1/2 miles from the LOM with 1432' to lose. Even if you were able to intercept the LOC right away on the inbound turn you are already starting extremely high on the GS. The only way to do a stabilized approach is to do the published PT, required or not. I'm sure thats the reason they use this approach, to see if you will notice that.

 

[MarineGrunt]

He was pretty adament that I had to do exactly what was published (45 degree barb), and I wasn't going to agrue.

You were definately not wrong in your type of course reversal. The AF teaches it just the way you did it.

 

[Singlecoil]

Good catch on the altitude to lose, I didn't notice that at first. It seems to me that even if you do the procedure turn, you are still going to have to dive for the glideslope. You can't decsend below 4800 until you are procedure turn inbound. Since you have to stay within 10nm throughout the maneuver, you'll be what, 6 miles out when you intercept the localizer, with 1900 feet to lose?
I agree that they probably have you do this approach to see if you'll catch that, but I think it is lame of them to set you up like that. You'll definitely have a better chance if you turn outbound and do the full procedure turn, but to say it is required is not correct and you can tell LaMar some dude on the internet said so!

 

[QXbuzzard]

Drew,


I would have probably flown the published PT because of how close the LOM is and the steep angle to be flown to intercept the glide slope. If you run in to any trouble intercepting the localizer coming off the turn in the hold it could make for a bad approach. Your instructor should never have told you that you have to fly the published PT when not in radar contact though. I flew single pilot 135 freight before coming to QX and the workload can be high when holding and then being cleared for an approach. I did actual scenarios like you did in the sim and by just doing the published PT on the chart made the workload a lot easier, trust me. You have 10 miles from the LOM (approx 18.8 miles on the DME from the VOR. Use it for situational awareness.) Did they give you a tailwind on your outbound leg in the hold? They have been known to do that when you are doing a PT as well. They want to see if you go past the 10 NM limit.
I am not telling you what to do but if I was in that same situation flying the Dash 8, I would intercept the localizer outbound and do the PT just for simplicity. Hope this helps

 

[rgnlwannabe]

Would you mind backing that up with an FAR or AIM section?

I was always under the impression that if you were holding at the OM and you were cleared for the approach (with a procedure turn depicted), you still had to go out for the procedure turn. However, after digging into it more deeply, I found that I was wrong, and it is not required. I found this in the Instrument flying Handbook:

Procedure turn:
"A barb indicates the direction or side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the TYPE and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot. Some of the options are the 45 degree procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the tear-drop procedure turn, or the 80 - 260 degree course reversal."

I guess this would have been okay, but it would have been better to do the procedure turn to lose altitude, and to be better positioned for the approach, and not to mention to get the job! I guess maybe they were seeing if you would opt for the procedure turn to be better positioned.

 

[DrewBlows]

I'm not sure I made the senario clear. When I was cleared for the approach I was already inbound on the LOC, which is why I chose to do the hold in lieu of the depicted procedure turn. I couldn't think of a way to turn around on the LOC to do the PT. I would have had to, in affect to two procedure turns, one to reverse course on the LOC and another to turn back inbound. I suppose this is possible, I just can't think of a good way to do it.

My biggest mistake (I now realize) was not realizing that I needed to lose so much altitude, there was no way that one minute outbound in the hold would have worked. I don't know if one minute outbound doing the depicted course reversal would have helped either. If I get to do it again I will make sure that I go outbound far enough to intercept the GS from below (of course staying within the prescribed 10 nm).

In all honesty, I don't know if I had a tailwind or not. I was concentrating on holding altitude and heading so hard everything else was a blur, I'll look next time, good information to have.

It's been a while since I've gotten any useful information from flightinfo, but this thread is helping. Thanks.

I'll ask again, if you were inbound on the LOC and wanted to do the published procedure turn, how would you go about accomplishing it? Would you do a teardrop between the LOM and the airport? I am not trying to argue, I just can't think of a good way to do it. The more opinions the better.

 

[DrewBlows]

I guess this would have been okay, but it would have been better to do the procedure turn to lose altitude, and to be better positioned for the approach, and not to mention to get the job! I guess maybe they were seeing if you would opt for the procedure turn to be better positioned.

Ha ha! I don't know if the procedure turn would have gotten me the job or not, like I said before the whole performance was pretty miserable. I'm more concerned with what will get me the job next time (assuming they are nice enough to interview me again, I think they are).

 

[Rotate140]

...I'm still amazed you didn't know where the VOR was located in Walla Walla. That part of the sim eval should have been a no-brainer. Additionally, you should have better prepared for the interview. If you really want a job with Horizon then spending some money/time would have paid off during your sim eval. Quit pointing your finger at the person who did your sim eval and whether they were right or wrong about flying the approach. Nobody is going to be holding your hand when your flying that exact approach into Pendleton at night, IMC with 37 people on board.


From what I've read you fell short of the 'bar' that horizon has set for potential pilot candidates. Learn from YOUR mistakes, get some real life experience and training and see if they will let you try it again.

 

[Singlecoil]

I'll ask again, if you were inbound on the LOC and wanted to do the published procedure turn, how would you go about accomplishing it? Would you do a teardrop between the LOM and the airport? I am not trying to argue, I just can't think of a good way to do it. The more opinions the better.

At the LOM, turn right to a heading of 115 and intercept the loc outbound.

 

[Flooder305]

Bottom line here is, you don't. Period. It will never happen in real life. You do your turn at your discretion on the protected side of course. It's legal it's simple you land. End of story. Anything else is a waste of gas, time etc. You've got an airline to run.....

The AIM reference is 5-4-8 a.1.

 

[turbodriver]

I'll ask again, if you were inbound on the LOC and wanted to do the published procedure turn, how would you go about accomplishing it? Would you do a teardrop between the LOM and the airport? I am not trying to argue, I just can't think of a good way to do it. The more opinions the better.

You're making this a LOT more difficult than it has to be. If you're already inbound on the LOC but not yet at the FAF/Outer marker when cleared for the approach, pass the OM and do a 180 (on the protected side) and reintercept the LOC at a 30 degree angle and track it outbound. Fly for a minute or so and fly the 45 degree procedure turn as depecticed on the plate. Then you should be able to intercept the GS without having to dive for it.

In real life, do whatever course reversal you want. However, this being an interview situation, do everything as stated on the plate. That way, the person conducting the ride wont be surprised. You don't want them thinking "what is he trying to do?"

And by the way, if you had that hard of a time just holding heading and altitude, that did you in a lot more than which course reversal you performed on the ILS. We do a lot of IFR stuff in the NW with the cascades and the ice that goes along with it and they don't want anybody who can't fly on the guages.