QX sim ride - What would you have done

[DrewBlows]

Here's the situation. I recently interviewed with QX but didn't get the job. The oral part went okay (could have gone better, but I got to the sim). The sim went horribly, I had a hard time holding a precise heading and altitude, missed a few radio calls, and was generally uncomfortable with the single pilot IFR situation. I haven't flown a small airplane in a year and a half and rarely flew single pilot IFR when I did fly small airplanes. Anyway those mistakes are basic and I'll be able to fix them with an hour or two in a FRASCA 142. What concerns me are a couple procedures which I want to make sure I get right should I get a second opportunity to interview.

First the obsticle departure procedure from Walla Walla, WA (ALW) (p. 15 left side).

ALW Runway Diagram

I departed RW 20 at ALW. The DP says to turn left, but also says to intercept the ALW 195 radial which would pricipitate a right turn from RW 20 (RW heading 198, VOR located to the left of the runway), then says to climb to 2500' before iniciating a right turn back to the VOR, and cross at or above the MEA or MCA. After takeoff I turned to a few degrees to the left, climbed to 2500' and made a right turn toward the VOR, before proceding on course. I was climbing pretty fast and was at my cruising altitude by the time I reached the VOR. Should I have turned right to intercept the ALW 195 radial and then turned right, back to the VOR?

My flightplan took me to Pendleton, OR (PDT) whre I shot the NDB-A, went missed and held at the LOM at 4800' as published (which is also the LOM for the ILS 25). While in the hold I was assigned 5000' and cleared for the ILS 25. Since I was already inbound in the hold at the LOM (which is also an IAF), I proceded to the LOM turned outbound and descended to 4800' (the lowest altitude outbound for the procedure turn). My plan was to go outbound for 1 minute, turn inbound, descend to 4300' and intercept the glideslope. Unfortunately, it tooke me some time to intercept the LOC inbound (due to wind or poor heading control, I'm not sure), realizing that I would not be able to intercept the GS from my postion, I informed ATC that I would need another turn in the hold to get it right. At this point I was told to intercept the GS from above (at this point, well above), which I would never do in real life (not stable). But I did it anyway, and landed. After the sim he asked me why I continued the hold after I was cleared for the ILS, to which I relplied that I did the hold as a course reversal in lieu of the published barbed procedure turn (to the best of my knowledge then and now this is correct). He told me that when navigating out of radar coverage I had to do the published procedure turn. I felt otherwise, but at that point didn't feel that an argument over it was in my best interest.

I found out a few days later that I didn't get the job (not unexpected after the sim evaluation) and one of the points mentioned in the debrief was the "diffence of opinion" about the ILS procedure. Again I didn't think that an argument was in my best interest because I would like to interview again, and feel that I have a much better chance the next time.

Which leads to my question. Assuming that I am able to interview again, how should I do these procedures? Should I turn right to intercept the ALW 195 radial on departure from ALW (contrary to the DP)? How should I do the procedure turn for the ILS if I'm already holding at the LOM/FAF?

Any insight from sucessful applicants would be helpful, I'm hoping to get another interview early next year and would like to get it right the second time.

 

[rgnlwannabe]

From what I gather without the approach plate in front of me (link did not work), after you are done holding you HAVE to go outbound and do the procedure turn when in not in radar contact, so I am pretty sure the approach was done incorrectly. If I were actually in Walla Walla doing this sort of scenario, I would have done the pt.

 

[strega7]

intercept the ALW 195 radial which would pricipitate a right turn from RW 20 (RW heading 198, VOR located to the left of the runway),

Isn't the 195 radial to the LEFT of RW heading 198 when departing RW20? That's why the DP has you turn left so that you can intercept it. Are you saying that you never intercepted the 195 radial and simply flew a 198 heading until 2500'? Or were the winds such that by the time you were airborne you needed to come right to grab the 195 radial?

 

[Singlecoil]

Isn't the 195 radial to the LEFT of RW heading 198 when departing RW20? That's why the DP has you turn left so that you can intercept it. Are you saying that you never intercepted the 195 radial and simply flew a 198 heading until 2500'? Or were the winds such that by the time you were airborne you needed to come right to grab the 195 radial?

I second strega7's opinion here on the departure. The 195 radial is to your left when departing off Rwy 20. Granted it isn't much, but they have to tell you which way to go there I think. Yes, you track the radial to 2500, then turn right direct the VOR. You don't just hold a heading to 2500.

As for the ILS, you did it exactly as I would have and I was a QX captain for 3 years. There is no requirement to do a "barbed" type procedure turn in non-radar. You can do a 90-270, do it out of the hold like you did, or do a teardrop (which is perfect for Kelowna by the way, who wants to go all the way to LARGN?). Your instructor is wrong or there was something else that happened that you weren't clear on. Were you doing right turns in the hold? Maybe your hold was really bad so that you were way off the localizer coarse. In that case, intercepting the localizer outbound wouldn't have been a bad idea, just to make sure you knew where you were. Maybe he saw that your hold was botched, then you tried to do the ILS out of the hold even though you weren't doing it right and said something. Holding at an NDB with wind takes practice, that is for sure.
But for anyone to say that you can't do a hold in lieu of a procedure turn is not correct.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

Here's the situation. I recently interviewed with QX but didn't get the job. The oral part went okay (could have gone better, but I got to the sim). The sim went horribly, I had a hard time holding a precise heading and altitude, missed a few radio calls, and was generally uncomfortable with the single pilot IFR situation. I haven't flown a small airplane in a year and a half and rarely flew single pilot IFR when I did fly small airplanes. Anyway those mistakes are basic and I'll be able to fix them with an hour or two in a FRASCA 142. What concerns me are a couple procedures which I want to make sure I get right should I get a second opportunity to interview.

First the obsticle departure procedure from Walla Walla, WA (ALW) (p. 15 left side).

ALW Runway Diagram

I departed RW 20 at ALW. The DP says to turn left, but also says to intercept the ALW 195 radial which would pricipitate a right turn from RW 20 (RW heading 198, VOR located to the left of the runway), then says to climb to 2500' before iniciating a right turn back to the VOR, and cross at or above the MEA or MCA. After takeoff I turned to a few degrees to the left, climbed to 2500' and made a right turn toward the VOR, before proceding on course. I was climbing pretty fast and was at my cruising altitude by the time I reached the VOR. Should I have turned right to intercept the ALW 195 radial and then turned right, back to the VOR?

My flightplan took me to Pendleton, OR (PDT) whre I shot the NDB-A, went missed and held at the LOM at 4800' as published (which is also the LOM for the ILS 25). While in the hold I was assigned 5000' and cleared for the ILS 25. Since I was already inbound in the hold at the LOM (which is also an IAF), I proceded to the LOM turned outbound and descended to 4800' (the lowest altitude outbound for the procedure turn). My plan was to go outbound for 1 minute, turn inbound, descend to 4300' and intercept the glideslope. Unfortunately, it tooke me some time to intercept the LOC inbound (due to wind or poor heading control, I'm not sure), realizing that I would not be able to intercept the GS from my postion, I informed ATC that I would need another turn in the hold to get it right. At this point I was told to intercept the GS from above (at this point, well above), which I would never do in real life (not stable). But I did it anyway, and landed. After the sim he asked me why I continued the hold after I was cleared for the ILS, to which I relplied that I did the hold as a course reversal in lieu of the published barbed procedure turn (to the best of my knowledge then and now this is correct). He told me that when navigating out of radar coverage I had to do the published procedure turn. I felt otherwise, but at that point didn't feel that an argument over it was in my best interest.

I found out a few days later that I didn't get the job (not unexpected after the sim evaluation) and one of the points mentioned in the debrief was the "diffence of opinion" about the ILS procedure. Again I didn't think that an argument was in my best interest because I would like to interview again, and feel that I have a much better chance the next time.

Which leads to my question. Assuming that I am able to interview again, how should I do these procedures? Should I turn right to intercept the ALW 195 radial on departure from ALW (contrary to the DP)? How should I do the procedure turn for the ILS if I'm already holding at the LOM/FAF?

Any insight from sucessful applicants would be helpful, I'm hoping to get another interview early next year and would like to get it right the second time.

It looks to me like if you hold at the NDB and try to turn inbound after only one minute outbound in the hold that would set you up to be high, on glide at the outer marker per the plate is 2868. That gives you 2000 ft to lose. 1500ft if you started descending outbound. I think it would have been easier to set up for the approach if you had gone outbound on the loc. and have done the pt within 18nm of PDT VOR. This would have given you time to intercept the glide slope and start a stabilized approach.

 

[DrewBlows]

On second look, I guess that it would be a slight left turn to intercept the 195 radial. I was at 2500 feet so fast i never intercepted it, i think that procedure went okay. In a slower climbing airplane I probably would have had to intercept it. My hold was okay (again, my attitude control pretty much sucked the whole time, but I can fix that). He was pretty adament that I had to do exactly what was published (45 degree barb), and I wasn't going to agrue. I've looked at it many times since then and would do it the same way every time. I can't see leaving the FAF to reintercept it when I'm already there. I'm not sure that was the final nail in the coffin of my performance or not, but I want to make sure that I do it right (or at least as expected) if I get another shot. I have access to a FRASCA 142, and since I'm being furloughed in January I should have time to practice in it (I didn't last time I interviewed).

Thanks for the replies, keep them comming.

 

[DrewBlows]

It looks to me like if you hold at the NDB and try to turn inbound after only one minute outbound in the hold that would set you up to be high, on glide at the outer marker per the plate is 2868. That gives you 2000 ft to lose. 1500ft if you started descending outbound. I think it would have been easier to set up for the approach if you had gone outbound on the loc. and have done the pt within 18nm of PDT VOR. This would have given you time to intercept the glide slope and start a stabilized approach.

It did in fact leave me high. So, since I was already inbound on the LOC, how should I have turned around to go outbound, if I were to do the published PT? I realized that I was high after the first turn (probably should have figured that out sooner) in the hold and decided to try it again, but go out furthur. I think that it would have worked as long as I stayed within 10 nm of the LOM. If I did the published PT wouldn't I have encounted the same problem? Afterall I would have only gone outbound for a minute, which would have put me at approximately the same intercept point (or maybe not, I did have trouble intercepting the LOC inbound).

 

[turbinesurgeon]

It did in fact leave me high. So, since I was already inbound on the LOC, how should I have turned around to go outbound, if I were to do the published PT? I realized that I was high after the first turn (probably should have figured that out sooner) in the hold and decided to try it again, but go out furthur. I think that it would have worked as long as I stayed within 10 nm of the LOM. If I did the published PT wouldn't I have encounted the same problem? Afterall I would have only gone outbound for a minute, which would have put me at approximately the same intercept point (or maybe not, I did have trouble intercepting the LOC inbound).

You could do a teardrop outbound (which keeps you in the protected side) to track the loc outbound and use DME to give yourself enough time to descend, do the pt, and intercept the glide and now it gives you time to insure the glide is accurate at the OM. I have and interview with them on Wed. I will let you know if it works.

 

[dashtrash]

From what I gather without the approach plate in front of me (link did not work), after you are done holding you HAVE to go outbound and do the procedure turn when in not in radar contact, so I am pretty sure the approach was done incorrectly. If I were actually in Walla Walla doing this sort of scenario, I would have done the pt.

Would you mind backing that up with an FAR or AIM section?

 

[StarChk20]

Just by looking at the approach I can tell you that if you try to start the approach right out of the hold, you will be high. the holding alt is 4300 and the GS alt at the LOM is 2868. Not sure what you were flying but at 1 min inbound at even 150 knots would put you 2 1/2 miles from the LOM with 1432' to lose. Even if you were able to intercept the LOC right away on the inbound turn you are already starting extremely high on the GS. The only way to do a stabilized approach is to do the published PT, required or not. I'm sure thats the reason they use this approach, to see if you will notice that.