Question regarding smoke in cabin

[NEDude]

A quick survey for all of you.

Why do most checklists (at least the four aircraft I have been typed on) ignore cabin O2 for pax with regards to smoke or fire?

What are your thoughts on this, do you provide O2 for the pax if there is smoke or not?

I know my answer but do not what to skew responses. What do you folks do/not do and why?

Yes, there are a bunch of us bored at the crashpad right now.

PS- Any references would be welcome as well.

 

[dhc8fo]

My checklist addresses the pax in the non-memory portion. Granted it takes them a little longer to get O2, but it is obvious why we need it first.

 

[NEDude]

Clarification - On follow up items there is some mention of pax O2 for some of the aircraft we have researched, but only after smoke has been eliminated (ie depressurization to ventilate the aircraft).

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Nope, not if a fire is suspected. Adding O2 to a fire could turn it into an inferno. If the fire is completely extinguished, then yes, O2 is okay for the pax.

 

[GogglesPisano]

I agree with Daytona (so does Boeing and Delta.)

Smoke in the cabin = Do not deploy pax O2.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

The passenger oxygen masks have re-breather bags that mix ambient air. If there is smoke in the cabin then it mixes with the oxygen the passenger is breathing doing more harm than good. Plus what another poster said about not adding more oxygen to the fire in the cabin.

 

[stall022]

Passenger oxygen generators do not provide the positive pressure to keep the smoke out of the cup, so people would be breathing oxygen smoke. They will also be providing a fresh oxygen and heat supply to a fire.

 

[CA1900]

A quick survey for all of you.

Why do most checklists (at least the four aircraft I have been typed on) ignore cabin O2 for pax with regards to smoke or fire?

The main reason is because the oxygen masks that passengers use mix ambient (smoke-filled) air in. They won't help, and will in fact make things worse than simply covering the nose and mouth with clothing, which can help filter the smoke somewhat.

If they had the type of masks we have up in the cockpit, that would be a different story, but they don't. Those masks are really only useful for a high cabin altitude.

Also, as Daytonaflyer points out, starting up a bunch of oxygen generators would be a really bad idea when there's already a fire.

I don't have any references handy; the only thing I could find is this Wikipedia page, but I don't feel Wikipedia's a reliable reference.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

The passenger oxygen masks have re-breather bags that mix ambient air. If there is smoke in the cabin then it mixes with the oxygen the passenger is breathing doing more harm than good.

As opposed to breathing smoke and smoke?

Are the masks only to be used to prevent hypoxia?

Here's a question that I wanna know - Do the hoses extend far enough that you could be on the floor and still have the mask on?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

They won't help, and will in fact make things worse than simply covering the nose and mouth with clothing, which can help filter the smoke somewhat.

Those masks are really only useful for a high cabin altitude.

Ahhhh, I see what ya did there. You answered my questions 4 minutes before I even asked them!

 

[CA1900]

I'm good like that. :laugh:

 

[ron burgundy]

or if you are riding in the back, you could pop the psu open break off the bag and mask and suck on the tube for o2.

 

[erj-145mech]

or if you are riding in the back, you could pop the psu open break off the bag and mask and suck on the tube for o2.

And how are you going to "pop" the psu open? Have you ever seen the latches on the psu doors? All you are going to do is hyper ventilate and pass out attempting this.

All the oxygen generators are going to do is sustain life from the higher altitudes down to about 14,500. Thats all they were designed to do.

You're best bet is to grab one of the flight attendants walk around bottles, they have about 1800 psi in them.

 

[75M]

And how are you going to "pop" the psu open? Have you ever seen the latches on the psu doors? All you are going to do is hyper ventilate and pass out attempting this.

Yeah, pressing a paperclip into that little hole must be exhausting!

 

[Bako Cap]

Yeah, pressing a paperclip into that little hole must be exhausting!

Or you could use a bobby pin.

"Where am I going to find a bobby pin?

Out here,

In space?"

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Or you could use a bobby pin.

"Where am I going to find a bobby pin?

Out here,

In space?"

... at this hour!?

 

[NEDude]

Thanks for the responses guys. Heard all of that stuff as well. A guy in the crashpad got chewed out at his last checkride because check airman insisted that you should put out masks in the event of cabin smoke to "at least give the passengers a chance". Apparently the check airman even got a little personal.

Just goes to show that being a check airman doesn't always mean you know what you are talking about.

 

[75M]

"What's a man doing with a bobby pin?"

 

[NJAPLT]

When I worked for a commuter airline, (a 1900 so the pax can see the cockpit) they had a smoke incident around rotation, pilots put on the masks and did an immediate return. After they landed the passenger said he was going to sue, "Because the pilots tried to kill him by not giving him oxygen, after all they were wearing their masks. They never could convince the passenger that it would have made the situation worse."

 

[GuppyWN]

Just goes to show that being a check airman doesn't always mean you know what you are talking about.

Well, you gonna go apologize now?

Gup

 

[NEDude]

Well, you gonna go apologize now?

Gup

Huh??

 

[Club ORD FO]

And how are you going to "pop" the psu open? Have you ever seen the latches on the psu doors?

you mean you have never dropped the rubber jungle on landing? the RJ-200 latches are not that strong, I can assure you of that

 

[erj-145mech]

you mean you have never dropped the rubber jungle on landing? the RJ-200 latches are not that strong, I can assure you of that

The Embraers must be stouter than the Canucks. The PSU's latches resemble a glove compartment door latch.

Either that or you need to practice your landing technique?

 

[ultrarunner]

.....A guy in the crashpad got chewed out at his last checkride because check airman insisted that you should put out masks in the event of cabin smoke to "at least give the passengers a chance"....

Did your crash-pad buddy follow the checklist or not?

Simple as that!

 

[NEDude]

Did your crash-pad buddy follow the checklist or not?

Simple as that!

Supposedly it was during the oral, not in the sim. Apparently the check airman was asking some judgement questions. Long story short, the check airman was trying to make a point that checklists are not always all-inclusive noting that apparently in this company (not going to say which one), on this aircraft (ERJ-145), the memory action items for a rejected takeoff do not include using brakes.

So his point was even though the checklist didn't call for passenger O2 masks in that situation, a good thinking captain should know to deploy them anyway. And as I stated, apparently he even got a bit personal in his verbal attack on this guy.

 

[ultrarunner]

OK, NE, I can buy some of that...judgement calls, etc...

But for something as critical as smoke, fire, etc..

If the manufacture doesn't want me doing something, I'm probably not going to second-guess that decision in the heat of passion while running the emer checklist immediate-action items.

As others have mentioned, most manufactures ONLY have you deploy pax O2 in the event of a depressurization NOT related to fire/smoke in the cabin. And for good reason, as discussed.

It's that way in the aircraft I fly.

 

[jetracer5]

This is why you don’t add more O2 to a fire inside a O2 deprived tube! Air Canada Flt 797. No visible fire just a lot of smoke for over 15min. After the plane landed and they opened the doors all the NEW O2 fueled the fire and the cabin erupted in flames. Sadly only half the pax made it out alive.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3161558782373246855


I cant even believe we are debating about this? I'm just a regional FO and I know better than to do something stupid like add more O2 to a fire! As a pax I would rather be over come by smoke and pass out then burned in a fire!

 

[NEDude]

OK, NE, I can buy some of that...judgement calls, etc...

But for something as critical as smoke, fire, etc..

If the manufacture doesn't want me doing something, I'm probably not going to second-guess that decision in the heat of passion while running the emer checklist immediate-action items.

As others have mentioned, most manufactures ONLY have you deploy pax O2 in the event of a depressurization NOT related to fire/smoke in the cabin. And for good reason, as discussed.

It's that way in the aircraft I fly.

I was not advocating deploying masks, nor am I defending this check airmans actions.

This whole thing started when a bunch of us, on reserve, watched the Seconds From Disaster show about the Valujet flight. It was noted that the pilots did not deploy the O2 masks for the passengers (nor did they put their on either) which led to the guy in my crashpad telling us about his recent PC and the 'discussion' with the check airman about this exact scenario.

We all said the same thing, do not deploy the masks, but were just curious as to what the general consensus was from a larger group.

You have answered our questions. Thank you all.

 

[igneousy2]

If I couldn't get one of the the o2 bottle I would go for the PBEs for sure.