Question: Pay for difference for a type and SIC?

[Jack Schitt]

A while back, I saw a Boeing training video of the effects on early rotation, late rotation, over rotation and under rotation on aircraft performance. It was eye opening to say the least. If you want, need or expect book performance then you have to fly it by the book.

'Sled

I can't say I disagree, but what happens to your obstacle clearance requirements if you rotate the airplane while you're 10, 20, or 30 degrees off the runway heading? Nobody expects a pilot to make an immediate 10-30 degree turn when they're 4,000 ft. down an 8,000 ft. runway. But yet that's exactly what can happen if you rotate the airplane before you're tracking the runway heading.

 

[G100driver]

Jack ... No disrespect here, but it should not take too much figure out which engine has failed apply rudder and then rotate to the prescribed pitch angle at VR.

If one is that concerned about their abilty to react to an engine failure then one can call V1 5 knots early provided that an early V1 does not go below V1mini.

I would also like to think that a professional pilot should be able to perform a V1 cut with the mains never crossing the center line.

 

[some_dude]

Some of this confusion may relate to a note in the Learjet AFM which cautions pilots to keep the nosewheel on the ground "until Vr."

Or it may not.

 

[G100driver]

Some of this confusion may relate to a note in the Learjet AFM which cautions pilots to keep the nosewheel on the ground "until Vr."

Or it may not.

That would not surprise me. A very good friend of mine refers to the Lear as "flying band-aid."

 

[Jack Schitt]

Jack ... No disrespect here, but it should not take too much figure out which engine has failed apply rudder and then rotate to the prescribed pitch angle at VR.

If one is that concerned about their abilty to react to an engine failure then one can call V1 5 knots early provided that an early V1 does not go below V1mini.

I would also like to think that a professional pilot should be able to perform a V1 cut with the mains never crossing the center line.

None taken. In a perfect world you would be correct. In a simulator, while you're locked and loaded for a V1 cut, you would be correct. If you're departing in a real airplane at 0300 would you still be correct? If you're departing in marginal conditions after being on duty for 15 hours would you still be correct? All I'm saying is that there's more to think about than just rotating at Vr no matter what.

 

[HMR]

Jack ... No disrespect here, but it should not take too much figure out which engine has failed apply rudder and then rotate to the prescribed pitch angle at VR.

I would also like to think that a professional pilot should be able to perform a V1 cut with the mains never crossing the center line.

Agreed.

"30 degrees" off runway heading in a Biz Jet? I'll bet that pilot never flew piston twins/T-Props.

 

[Stealthh21]

That would not surprise me. A very good friend of mine refers to the Lear as "flying band-aid."

Sorry what does that mean??

 

[G100driver]

Sorry what does that mean??

I have yet to see an airplane, other than a lear, that has as many mod and A/D changes. The FSI book describes the airplane unless of course you are operating serial numbers 2??-3?? ect, ect.

Not meant to be an insult, just not one airplane matches the other. Thus trying to contantly band-aid the airplane to make a better airframe. IMHO

 

[Spooky 1]

Proper term is Rotate

When the PNF calls "Rotate" he's not making a command, he's making a statement. He's telling the PF that the aircraft has reached a safe flying speed. There is no requirement to rotate at exactly Vr +0. Many very experienced professional pilots will say "Vr" instead of "Rotate" for exactly this reason. It's just as important to keep the airplane tracking straight down the runway as it is to rotate at or near Vr. I'm not saying accelerate to V2 on the ground, but there's nothing wrong with rotating beyond Vr.

This is sort of like picking the fly sh*t out of the pepper but I believe the term "rotate" is preferalble to VR as in some cases with a cluttered runway, VR or Rotate can occur after V2. Boeing recognizes this anomaly and uses the term "rotate" through out all of their FCTM. While recently compiling a GOM for our own operation and trying to harmonize as many callouts as possible through out a large fleet of aircraft we did notice that this is not a constant with all aircraft mfg's. The BBD700 is one of them as I recall, but then it's French! So do what ever you want, but the term "experienced pilots will say "Vr" instead of "rotate" does not stand the test of close examination in this case at least.

Contrary to your statement that there is nothing wrong with delaying the rotation, both takeoff and initial climb performance depend on rotating at the correct airspeed and proper rate to the rotation target altitude. Early or rapid rotation may cause a tail strike. Late, slow, or under rotation increases takeoff ground roll. Any improper rotation decreases initial climb flight path.

Takeoff speeds are established based upon minimum control speed, stall speed, and tail clearance margins. Shorter bodied aircraft are normally governed by stall speed margin while longer bodied aircraft are normally limited by tail clearance margins. When a smooth continous rotation is initiated at VR, tail clearance margin is assured because computed takeoff speeds depicted in the FM/QRH, airport analysis or FMC, are adjusted to provide adequate tail clearance.

 

[LrBob]

For what ever its worth, my first job required i pay for my type.
Well that was in 98, now I make 130,000 plus managing and flying Lears, I also fly citations contract and I paid for that 1 as well. I know its rare to make the money I do working Lears and Citations, but it was worth it for me to do what i did. Also without a type, you are just another co-pilot, a dime a dozen. But with a type you are a Captain

 

[G100driver]

Bob, you are definately the exception.

 

[LrBob]

I know, having an A/P helps and being nice to people and be willing to put up with owners sh*t helps

 

[G100driver]

I know, having an A/P helps and being nice to people and be willing to put up with owners sh*t helps

BINGO!!!

 

[jaxpilot]

nm....

 

[NCherches]

Never Pay For Training! This Industry Is Dying Because Of This Sort Of Thing!

 

[svcta]

I think the spirit of the argument against yanking an airplane in to the air just because the guy next to you said "Rotate" is dead on. That word only gives you permission to do so. I think that it's better to think of it that way rather than "I'm going flying now, no matter what else is going on so hang on to your shorts."

And for those of you unfamiliar with the G200s rudder bias system, sometimes your feet fool you.

Edit: Never pay for training.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Back to the topic at hand....

GET THE TYPE. They are paying for a lion's share of it, and DON'T PASS UP THE OPPORTUNITY. My first jet training ever about 8 years ago was the LR-25 SIC initial. I passed up the chance to pay about an extra $1,500 bucks and get the type and sure enough, I didn't do it. Shortly thereafter the damn company went out of business and my chance went down the toilet. I could have been logging PIC time in the damn thing since then. I'd have 3 types right now instead of 2 and more jet PIC.

Still kicking myself in the ass every day about passing that up.

 

[Lead Sled]

Back to the topic at hand....

GET THE TYPE. They are paying for a lion's share of it, and DON'T PASS UP THE OPPORTUNITY. My first jet training ever about 8 years ago was the LR-25 SIC initial. I passed up the chance to pay about an extra $1,500 bucks and get the type and sure enough, I didn't do it. Shortly thereafter the damn company went out of business and my chance went down the toilet. I could have been logging PIC time in the damn thing since then. I'd have 3 types right now instead of 2 and more jet PIC.

Still kicking myself in the ass every day about passing that up.

Normally, I'm against paying for training, but you've really got to look at each opportunity on its own merits. I've lost out on two type ratings that would have cost me next to nothing - Boeing 727 and Cessna Citation 500. My recomendation would be to not be in a big rush to spend your money on the type; but if you think that your current situation might not evolve into a paid type rating, then it just makes good sense to pay a little extra to get the rating.

LS

 

[Lear70]

In a CORPORATE jet, I'd still say pay the extra cash if it's not much...

I used to not think so but, after being around a bit, I can say that some Part 91 legs logging 91.51(c) PIC time is better than nothing, and might mean the difference between getting a job later and not getting it.

In the 121 world, all bets are off, as you never really see any legs you can log PIC on for all intents and purposes, plus they rarely allow you to "pay the difference", as it's mostly in-house training, so the point is rather moot.

 

[Basil]

I was in a similar situation a few years ago. I was sent by a new company to LR-35 Recurrent (I had previously been to FSI LR-35 Initial and had 1300 in type) and the new company was not going to type me, though they had promised me "quick upgrade to PIC" based upon my time in the jet and sparkling smile. Normally, I'd have gone along with that, but after I was hired, I saw the exact jet that I was to fly listed for sale in a magazine! Not knowing how long the jet may be around, and fearing that I would never get another chance at a LR-JET type,I asked about paying the extra. $2,000 was the quote by FSI, but I needed the company authorization as it was a 135 checkride, in addition to my type and ATP. The company caved and paid the difference for me, but turned it into a training contract for twelve months. It was worth it, and I was made PIC a month later.

As for the "Rotate" issue, I can see no reason to delay the rotation beyond Vr unless there is a directional control issue which requires that the nose gear be on the runway.

And here's my tip for those new to jets and simulators: If you should find yourself off to one side of the runway after the engine failure, apply rudder aiming for the center of the far end of the runway. That way, you'll be correcting without over-correcting. My problem was that I aggresively corrected back to centerline and then weaved quite a bit once I got there, which complicated the rotation.

Can the original poster clue us in on what he did regarding his type-rating?