Question on A.I.M. procedure;

[Suzuki300]

I am a Captain for a 121 carrier and have a question on an A.T.C. communication procedure from A.I.M. 5-3-3-a-1-(a); reporting leaving altitude, both climbing and descending. Many pilots now, both civilian and military backgrounds, are reading back A.T.C. clearances to climb or descend verbatim. Example: (A.T.C.): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360" - (Pilot): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360". I learned many years ago that to satisfy the A.I.M. referenced above, a proper acknowledgment would be, "United 8 is departing FL340 for FL360". It seems that in a non-radar environment, a call leaving altitude is required, but though this is true in a radar environment also, it is overlooked. Our company Flight Operations Manual specifically states to report leaving altitude. I emailed the F.A.A. in Washington 2 weeks ago with this question but have yet to receive an answer. Technically, am I correct in demanding that my First Officers report leaving altitude? Thank you for your replies!

 

[LJPilot]

Im not looking at the reg, but we are only required to report leaving an altitude in a descent. We are never given pilots discretion to climb, so they know that we are climbing when it is issued. We have to report when leaving an altitude while descending because we are given pilot's discretion every day, several times a day. If for some reason we start our descent later than ATC anticipated, a report leaving our altitude will alert ATC and they can give us a vector for descent if neccesary.

 

[GVFlyer]

I am a Captain for a 121 carrier and have a question on an A.T.C. communication procedure from A.I.M. 5-3-3-a-1-(a); reporting leaving altitude, both climbing and descending. Many pilots now, both civilian and military backgrounds, are reading back A.T.C. clearances to climb or descend verbatim. Example: (A.T.C.): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360" - (Pilot): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360". I learned many years ago that to satisfy the A.I.M. referenced above, a proper acknowledgment would be, "United 8 is departing FL340 for FL360". It seems that in a non-radar environment, a call leaving altitude is required, but though this is true in a radar environment also, it is overlooked. Our company Flight Operations Manual specifically states to report leaving altitude. I emailed the F.A.A. in Washington 2 weeks ago with this question but have yet to receive an answer. Technically, am I correct in demanding that my First Officers report leaving altitude? Thank you for your replies!

This is a continuing issue I have with our junior birdmen. I agree with you and think it is a lapse in cockpit discipline to fail to report out of an altitude. I insist that my right seater make this report.

Let me know how the FAA responds.


GV

 

[paulsalem]

Technically, am I correct in demanding that my First Officers report leaving altitude?

Yes you are correct. I do report it. Funny thing is I was doing it on IOE and the Check Airman told me not to.

 

[avbug]

"Yabba Dabba Five Six Five, Climb and maintain flight level three five zero."

"Yabba Dabba Five Six Five, two five zero climbing three five zero."

No need to make it more complicated than necessary. Keep it concise. No need to say "we are departing two five zero at this time at thirty seconds past the hour and planning on climbing to the altitude you just said in that clearance of three five zero and we'll be leaving right now, thank you." Just state the altitude you're vacating and the altitude to which you've been cleared, separated by "climbing," or "descending" as appropriate. No need to say "leaving," "vacating," or any other magic phraseology.

Reporting your vacated altitude or reporting when you vacate an altitude is always a courtesy to the controller if the frequency is not overly congested...it keeps him or her informed and also serves to verify your present altitude.

Reference AIM 5-3-3:

5-3-3. Additional Reports
a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

(b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a clearance specifying VFR-on-top.

(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500 feet per minute.

(d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for specific action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)

(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude) when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that filed in the flight plan.

(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared.

(g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.

(h) Any loss, in controlled airspace, of VOR, TACAN, ADF, low frequency navigation receiver capability, GPS anomalies while using installed IFR-certified GPS/GNSS receivers, complete or partial loss of ILS receiver capability or impairment of air/ground communications capability. Reports should include aircraft identification, equipment affected, degree to which the capability to operate under IFR in the ATC system is impaired, and the nature and extent of assistance desired from ATC.

(i) Any information relating to the safety of flight.

Bear in mind that this is an AIM recommended proceedure, not a "shall" proceedure, and not a regulatory proceedure. It's not mandatory, but a courtesy which is well advised, dependent upon frequency congestion and your own cockpit workload. Not much work is required to make the call as described above, and generally ATC is expecting to hear you read back your altitude clearance...providing your vacating information in one breath is quick and simple.

However, there may be other times when you are on a PD clearance, and you're not necessarily reading back. You're cleared higher or lower at pilot discretion, and you're vacating on our time table. In such a case, you're still best served as a courtesy by reporting vacating the altitude in the same manner described above. "Podunk Five Six Niner, three our zero descending two four zero."

 

[immelman79]

section a) above in the aim does not say to state the altitude leaving, it just says to state that you are vacating for the new assigned altitude. " United 8 climb and maintain FL370" is all that is needed. No where does it say to state the altitude leaving...... it just says to inform them you are vacating.

 

[soarby007]

I recently visited a facility and the guide told me that they can see what you are doing and not necessary to report everything. If you do something out of the planned or given clearance, then report it. That was one controller's input. The question I asked had to do with reporting leaving on a PD descent.

 

[immelman79]

you would need to report starting descent on a pd, but not what altitude you would be leaving, just state you are begining descent for the new altitude given.

 

[soarby007]

Next time you are in a quiet time, ask the guy if he really wants that report.

 

[GEXDriver]

"Yabba Dabba Five Six Five, Climb and maintain flight level three five zero."

"Yabba Dabba Five Six Five, two five zero climbing three five zero."

No need to make it more complicated than necessary. Keep it concise. No need to say "we are departing two five zero at this time at thirty seconds past the hour and planning on climbing to the altitude you just said in that clearance of three five zero and we'll be leaving right now, thank you." Just state the altitude you're vacating and the altitude to which you've been cleared, separated by "climbing," or "descending" as appropriate. No need to say "leaving," "vacating," or any other magic phraseology.

Reporting your vacated altitude or reporting when you vacate an altitude is always a courtesy to the controller if the frequency is not overly congested...it keeps him or her informed and also serves to verify your present altitude.

Reference AIM 5-3-3:


Bear in mind that this is an AIM recommended proceedure, not a "shall" proceedure, and not a regulatory proceedure. It's not mandatory, but a courtesy which is well advised, dependent upon frequency congestion and your own cockpit workload. Not much work is required to make the call as described above, and generally ATC is expecting to hear you read back your altitude clearance...providing your vacating information in one breath is quick and simple.

However, there may be other times when you are on a PD clearance, and you're not necessarily reading back. You're cleared higher or lower at pilot discretion, and you're vacating on our time table. In such a case, you're still best served as a courtesy by reporting vacating the altitude in the same manner described above. "Podunk Five Six Niner, three our zero descending two four zero."

You are correct, Sir!