Question on A.I.M. procedure;

[Hold West]

One comment:

"When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level."

The operative word here is "assigned". So when climbing through 250 for 330, and I reclear you to 370, you do not need to report out of 250 - you were never assigned 250, you just happen to be passing there.

If you're level at 330, and then I assign 370, the yes, "leaving 330 for 370" is appropriate.

If you are given a PD descent, yes, by all means I want that leaving report. There are a variety of reasons. One most dear to me is it helps me pick out exactly who's calling when I have 25 aircraft on 2 different frequencies, and everyone's climbing and descending - and I really want to know who's doing what!

 

[TxPilot0878]

so is checking on with approach while leaving tower dictate Gulfstream NXX6BP require "out of 3 point 5 climbing 10 thousand!"

Just curious!

 

[cessnapilot]

the call

Next time you are in a quiet time, ask the guy if he really wants that report.

He will say "no" according to an ATC friend... but the reg is clear, it is required. To meet ICAO, it is better to say "FL240 climging FL 350" not "out of 240 for 350" due to the Flying Tigers accident many years ago...

 

[Draginass]

When switching to a new controller and you're in a climb or descent, you should report the "passing" level so that the controller can verify his scope information, correct?

 

[paulsalem]

Yes...

5-3-1. ARTCC Communications
b. ATC Frequency Change Procedures.

2. The following phraseology should be utilized by pilots for establishing contact with the designated facility:

(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.

EXAMPLE-1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
NOTE-
Exact altitude or flight level means to the nearest 100 foot increment. Exact altitude or flight level reports on initial contact provide ATC with information required prior to using Mode C altitude information for separation purposes.

 

[cessnapilot]

verbage

Yes, but your words are wrong... the result of the flying tigers accident was "descend to 400" was really "descend 2400" so the ICAO words are important... so never say "for" and you will be okay... "for" is really "four"

I am a Captain for a 121 carrier and have a question on an A.T.C. communication procedure from A.I.M. 5-3-3-a-1-(a); reporting leaving altitude, both climbing and descending. Many pilots now, both civilian and military backgrounds, are reading back A.T.C. clearances to climb or descend verbatim. Example: (A.T.C.): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360" - (Pilot): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360". I learned many years ago that to satisfy the A.I.M. referenced above, a proper acknowledgment would be, "United 8 is departing FL340 for FL360". It seems that in a non-radar environment, a call leaving altitude is required, but though this is true in a radar environment also, it is overlooked. Our company Flight Operations Manual specifically states to report leaving altitude. I emailed the F.A.A. in Washington 2 weeks ago with this question but have yet to receive an answer. Technically, am I correct in demanding that my First Officers report leaving altitude? Thank you for your replies!

 

[Seadogrun]

so is checking on with approach while leaving tower dictate Gulfstream NXX6BP require "out of 3 point 5 climbing 10 thousand!"

Just curious!

The "three point five" is an poor habit that is heard all the time. The proper way is "three thousand five hundred"

It is often heard in the flight levels as well ie "through three five point five for three six zero" I don't know where people get their "points" from but the proper way would be "three five five for three six zero" with no point or decimal.

And if you really wanted to be a stickler "Tree thousand fife hundred" is the proper phraseology.

 

[paulsalem]

It is often heard in the flight levels as well ie "through three five point five for three six zero" I don't know where people get their "points" from but the proper way would be "three five five for three six zero" with no point or decimal.

No, it would be "flight level three three five climbing flight level three six zero".

Don't use the word "for", it sounds like "four".

 

[POWDERFINGER]

It's great to see such a long string literate and coherent comments on a subject so pertinent to users of the national airspace system. The small details of communication do matter...I see much of this relating to enhancing situational awareness of both pilots and controllers, and augmenting the radar.

Things seem to flow better with standard calls and phraseology, and it only makes a situation worse if anyone on a frequency mangles communications. And who wants to sit with the Feds and defend poor comm practices if something happens (alt bust, blown tire, etc.)

 

[jeroom]

This is a continuing issue I have with our junior birdmen. I agree with you and think it is a lapse in cockpit discipline to fail to report out of an altitude. I insist that my right seater make this report.

Let me know how the FAA responds.


GV

Do you also ask your rightseater to sugar your coffee while he makes altitude reports to ATC?

 

[paulsalem]

Do you also ask your rightseater to sugar your coffee while he makes altitude reports to ATC?

We'll I think we all knew it couldn't last too long; 29 posts of informative and professional discussion.

Thanks for brining us back to the FI Universe jeroom.

 

[jeroom]

We'll I think we all knew it couldn't last too long; 29 posts of informative and professional discussion.

Thanks for brining us back to the FI Universe jeroom.

You are welcome!! I am glad I was there at the right time...

Nice avatar by the way!! Keep up the good job there!

 

[stupidpilot]

Talk about wrapped around the axle. If your report to ATC is clear and unambiguous, then there is no problem. Slang sometimes does confuse the issue but so does uneccessary chatter congesting a busy frequency. Keep it short & to the point with only the necessary info. ATC doesn't care what previous altitude your leaving they only care if you read back the correct new assigned altitude.

 

[paulsalem]

Down Brown would disagree.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182638-1.html

As well as Hold West, but I don't think he's on this board anymore.

 

[stupidpilot]

Talk about wrapped around the axle. If your report to ATC is clear and unambiguous, then there is no problem. Slang sometimes does confuse the issue but so does uneccessary chatter congesting a busy frequency. Keep it short & to the point with only the necessary info. ATC doesn't care what previous altitude your leaving they only care if you read back the correct new assigned altitude.

I guess I should amend that a bit. When you are given a decent at your discretion then it is prudent to report initiating your descent. "Leaving XX for XX.

 

[2dumb2drive]

There are times (single pilot) when you get an altitude change and you can't make the power/pitch change at the same moment you read back the order, so a call that you are actually leaving is appropriate. This comes up more in training than anywhere else, but is still applicable in every day flying. Sure, if you are on top of it and start your climb/descent as you are reading back, say "leaving", but if you need a few seconds to make the change, don't say "leaving" when you havn't, and report it when you do.

While this comment might be in all terms technically correct, it is one of the most impractical suggestions in this forum. Try this the next time you are in the new york tracon area on a busy afternoon. He will tell you to shut up and speak when spoken to. No one cares if it takes you three seconds after the given clearance to pull those tricky leavers back and point that single pilot ship down hill.

 

[nosehair]

it is one of the most impractical suggestions in this forum.

Wow! Really! That really rates right up there, don't it?

Thank ya, thank ya, thank ya vera much...

 

[JediNein]

How about dropping the "to" and "for"

airliner xxx, "two one zero four three three zero".
airliner XX, "two one zero climbing three three zero".

and

bugsmasher xx: "leaving one four two five thousand".
bugsmasher xx: "one thousand climbing five thousand".

 

[stupidpilot]

How about dropping the "to" and "for"

airliner xxx, "two one zero four three three zero".
airliner XX, "two one zero climbing three three zero".

and

bugsmasher xx: "leaving one four two five thousand".
bugsmasher xx: "one thousand climbing five thousand".

Because it sounds jumbled and doesn't follow normal speech patterns.