Question on A.I.M. procedure;

[avbug]

On a side note: people say the AIM isn't regulatory. Well ok I've heard that too.

But that's where you'll find how not to fly into a mountain while doing a missed approach from a circle-to-land approach. I don't think, "Well the AIM isn't regulatory will keep you alive."

That the AIM isn't regulatory isn't a matter of opinion, but fact.

What the AIM does do, however, is compile proceedures and reiterate regulation, and provide the standard for operations. Everything found in the AIM can also be found elsewhere...in regulation, in FAA Orders, in Advisory Circulars, and other sources. It's an information manual, which compiles the information one needs to know to operate within the system.

 

[climbhappy]

what about decimals?

I was trying to show a friend with his private who just got back into flying some things about standard phraseology. he'll be working on his instrument.

as we were listening and we of course covered things like leaving an altitude, a guy chimes in leaving 1.5 for 10. i do it all the time.

what does ATC have to say regarding the use od decimals in the read back?

 

[avbug]

You ask a two part question. A spoken decimal point in communications from an FAA point of view is spoken as "point," though from an ICAO and military point of view it's spoken as "decimal."

AIM 4-2-8:

e. When a radio frequency contains a decimal point, the decimal point is spoken as “POINT.”
EXAMPLE-
122.1 one two two point one
NOTE -
ICAO procedures require the decimal point be spoken as “DECIMAL.” The FAA will honor such usage by military aircraft and all other aircraft required to use ICAO procedures.

However, I don't think that's what you're asking. You want to know if it's okay to use slang altitude descriptions for altitude, instead of proper phraseology.

The FAA is clear on the proper use of altitudes and numbers, as found in the Aeronautical Information Manual, Chapter four, section 2, subsection 9. If you don't have a copy of the AIM, you need one...and then can look these things up.

AIM 4-2-9

a. Up to but not including 18,000 feet MSL, state the separate digits of the thousands plus the hundreds if appropriate.
EXAMPLE-
1. 12,000 one two thousand
2. 12,500 one two thousand five hundred
b. At and above 18,000 feet MSL (FL 180), state the words “flight level” followed by the separate digits of the flight level.
EXAMPLE-
1. 190 Flight Level One Niner Zero
2. 275 Flight Level Two Seven Five

 

[paulsalem]

Yea AvBug did the leg work on this one. Basically don't use the "One Point Five climbing...".

 

[nosehair]

5-3-1 does say you must state "leaving".

Thank you, paulsalem, for your input.

I am a firm believer of saying the words "leaving xx thousand for xx thousand", when I actually do it. Repeating back the clearance is not a report, unless i say it in the read-back; "Leaving..."

There are times (single pilot) when you get an altitude change and you can't make the power/pitch change at the same moment you read back the order, so a call that you are actually leaving is appropriate. This comes up more in training than anywhere else, but is still applicable in every day flying. Sure, if you are on top of it and start your climb/descent as you are reading back, say "leaving", but if you need a few seconds to make the change, don't say "leaving" when you havn't, and report it when you do.

It has become accepted bad habit because atc allows it because of the mode c txpdr function, but that doesn't make it right.

99.9% of the time, it doesn't matter. It's just that .1% of the time that I will eventually run into that I am concerned about. Pilots and controllers make mistakes. Why up the ante by depending on your mode c being monitored by an alert controller?

And I didn't make this up, it's straight out of the book.

 

[Hold West]

One comment:

"When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level."

The operative word here is "assigned". So when climbing through 250 for 330, and I reclear you to 370, you do not need to report out of 250 - you were never assigned 250, you just happen to be passing there.

If you're level at 330, and then I assign 370, the yes, "leaving 330 for 370" is appropriate.

If you are given a PD descent, yes, by all means I want that leaving report. There are a variety of reasons. One most dear to me is it helps me pick out exactly who's calling when I have 25 aircraft on 2 different frequencies, and everyone's climbing and descending - and I really want to know who's doing what!

 

[TxPilot0878]

so is checking on with approach while leaving tower dictate Gulfstream NXX6BP require "out of 3 point 5 climbing 10 thousand!"

Just curious!

 

[cessnapilot]

the call

Next time you are in a quiet time, ask the guy if he really wants that report.

He will say "no" according to an ATC friend... but the reg is clear, it is required. To meet ICAO, it is better to say "FL240 climging FL 350" not "out of 240 for 350" due to the Flying Tigers accident many years ago...

 

[Draginass]

When switching to a new controller and you're in a climb or descent, you should report the "passing" level so that the controller can verify his scope information, correct?

 

[paulsalem]

Yes...

5-3-1. ARTCC Communications
b. ATC Frequency Change Procedures.

2. The following phraseology should be utilized by pilots for establishing contact with the designated facility:

(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.

EXAMPLE-1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
NOTE-
Exact altitude or flight level means to the nearest 100 foot increment. Exact altitude or flight level reports on initial contact provide ATC with information required prior to using Mode C altitude information for separation purposes.

 

[cessnapilot]

verbage

Yes, but your words are wrong... the result of the flying tigers accident was "descend to 400" was really "descend 2400" so the ICAO words are important... so never say "for" and you will be okay... "for" is really "four"

I am a Captain for a 121 carrier and have a question on an A.T.C. communication procedure from A.I.M. 5-3-3-a-1-(a); reporting leaving altitude, both climbing and descending. Many pilots now, both civilian and military backgrounds, are reading back A.T.C. clearances to climb or descend verbatim. Example: (A.T.C.): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360" - (Pilot): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360". I learned many years ago that to satisfy the A.I.M. referenced above, a proper acknowledgment would be, "United 8 is departing FL340 for FL360". It seems that in a non-radar environment, a call leaving altitude is required, but though this is true in a radar environment also, it is overlooked. Our company Flight Operations Manual specifically states to report leaving altitude. I emailed the F.A.A. in Washington 2 weeks ago with this question but have yet to receive an answer. Technically, am I correct in demanding that my First Officers report leaving altitude? Thank you for your replies!

 

[Seadogrun]

so is checking on with approach while leaving tower dictate Gulfstream NXX6BP require "out of 3 point 5 climbing 10 thousand!"

Just curious!

The "three point five" is an poor habit that is heard all the time. The proper way is "three thousand five hundred"

It is often heard in the flight levels as well ie "through three five point five for three six zero" I don't know where people get their "points" from but the proper way would be "three five five for three six zero" with no point or decimal.

And if you really wanted to be a stickler "Tree thousand fife hundred" is the proper phraseology.

 

[paulsalem]

It is often heard in the flight levels as well ie "through three five point five for three six zero" I don't know where people get their "points" from but the proper way would be "three five five for three six zero" with no point or decimal.

No, it would be "flight level three three five climbing flight level three six zero".

Don't use the word "for", it sounds like "four".

 

[POWDERFINGER]

It's great to see such a long string literate and coherent comments on a subject so pertinent to users of the national airspace system. The small details of communication do matter...I see much of this relating to enhancing situational awareness of both pilots and controllers, and augmenting the radar.

Things seem to flow better with standard calls and phraseology, and it only makes a situation worse if anyone on a frequency mangles communications. And who wants to sit with the Feds and defend poor comm practices if something happens (alt bust, blown tire, etc.)

 

[jeroom]

This is a continuing issue I have with our junior birdmen. I agree with you and think it is a lapse in cockpit discipline to fail to report out of an altitude. I insist that my right seater make this report.

Let me know how the FAA responds.


GV

Do you also ask your rightseater to sugar your coffee while he makes altitude reports to ATC?