Question on A.I.M. procedure;

[Suzuki300]

I am a Captain for a 121 carrier and have a question on an A.T.C. communication procedure from A.I.M. 5-3-3-a-1-(a); reporting leaving altitude, both climbing and descending. Many pilots now, both civilian and military backgrounds, are reading back A.T.C. clearances to climb or descend verbatim. Example: (A.T.C.): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360" - (Pilot): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360". I learned many years ago that to satisfy the A.I.M. referenced above, a proper acknowledgment would be, "United 8 is departing FL340 for FL360". It seems that in a non-radar environment, a call leaving altitude is required, but though this is true in a radar environment also, it is overlooked. Our company Flight Operations Manual specifically states to report leaving altitude. I emailed the F.A.A. in Washington 2 weeks ago with this question but have yet to receive an answer. Technically, am I correct in demanding that my First Officers report leaving altitude? Thank you for your replies!

 

[LJPilot]

Im not looking at the reg, but we are only required to report leaving an altitude in a descent. We are never given pilots discretion to climb, so they know that we are climbing when it is issued. We have to report when leaving an altitude while descending because we are given pilot's discretion every day, several times a day. If for some reason we start our descent later than ATC anticipated, a report leaving our altitude will alert ATC and they can give us a vector for descent if neccesary.

 

[GVFlyer]

I am a Captain for a 121 carrier and have a question on an A.T.C. communication procedure from A.I.M. 5-3-3-a-1-(a); reporting leaving altitude, both climbing and descending. Many pilots now, both civilian and military backgrounds, are reading back A.T.C. clearances to climb or descend verbatim. Example: (A.T.C.): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360" - (Pilot): "United 8, climb and maintain FL360". I learned many years ago that to satisfy the A.I.M. referenced above, a proper acknowledgment would be, "United 8 is departing FL340 for FL360". It seems that in a non-radar environment, a call leaving altitude is required, but though this is true in a radar environment also, it is overlooked. Our company Flight Operations Manual specifically states to report leaving altitude. I emailed the F.A.A. in Washington 2 weeks ago with this question but have yet to receive an answer. Technically, am I correct in demanding that my First Officers report leaving altitude? Thank you for your replies!

This is a continuing issue I have with our junior birdmen. I agree with you and think it is a lapse in cockpit discipline to fail to report out of an altitude. I insist that my right seater make this report.

Let me know how the FAA responds.


GV

 

[paulsalem]

Technically, am I correct in demanding that my First Officers report leaving altitude?

Yes you are correct. I do report it. Funny thing is I was doing it on IOE and the Check Airman told me not to.

 

[avbug]

"Yabba Dabba Five Six Five, Climb and maintain flight level three five zero."

"Yabba Dabba Five Six Five, two five zero climbing three five zero."

No need to make it more complicated than necessary. Keep it concise. No need to say "we are departing two five zero at this time at thirty seconds past the hour and planning on climbing to the altitude you just said in that clearance of three five zero and we'll be leaving right now, thank you." Just state the altitude you're vacating and the altitude to which you've been cleared, separated by "climbing," or "descending" as appropriate. No need to say "leaving," "vacating," or any other magic phraseology.

Reporting your vacated altitude or reporting when you vacate an altitude is always a courtesy to the controller if the frequency is not overly congested...it keeps him or her informed and also serves to verify your present altitude.

Reference AIM 5-3-3:

5-3-3. Additional Reports
a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

(b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a clearance specifying VFR-on-top.

(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500 feet per minute.

(d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for specific action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)

(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude) when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that filed in the flight plan.

(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared.

(g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.

(h) Any loss, in controlled airspace, of VOR, TACAN, ADF, low frequency navigation receiver capability, GPS anomalies while using installed IFR-certified GPS/GNSS receivers, complete or partial loss of ILS receiver capability or impairment of air/ground communications capability. Reports should include aircraft identification, equipment affected, degree to which the capability to operate under IFR in the ATC system is impaired, and the nature and extent of assistance desired from ATC.

(i) Any information relating to the safety of flight.

Bear in mind that this is an AIM recommended proceedure, not a "shall" proceedure, and not a regulatory proceedure. It's not mandatory, but a courtesy which is well advised, dependent upon frequency congestion and your own cockpit workload. Not much work is required to make the call as described above, and generally ATC is expecting to hear you read back your altitude clearance...providing your vacating information in one breath is quick and simple.

However, there may be other times when you are on a PD clearance, and you're not necessarily reading back. You're cleared higher or lower at pilot discretion, and you're vacating on our time table. In such a case, you're still best served as a courtesy by reporting vacating the altitude in the same manner described above. "Podunk Five Six Niner, three our zero descending two four zero."

 

[immelman79]

section a) above in the aim does not say to state the altitude leaving, it just says to state that you are vacating for the new assigned altitude. " United 8 climb and maintain FL370" is all that is needed. No where does it say to state the altitude leaving...... it just says to inform them you are vacating.

 

[soarby007]

I recently visited a facility and the guide told me that they can see what you are doing and not necessary to report everything. If you do something out of the planned or given clearance, then report it. That was one controller's input. The question I asked had to do with reporting leaving on a PD descent.

 

[immelman79]

you would need to report starting descent on a pd, but not what altitude you would be leaving, just state you are begining descent for the new altitude given.

 

[soarby007]

Next time you are in a quiet time, ask the guy if he really wants that report.

 

[GEXDriver]

"Yabba Dabba Five Six Five, Climb and maintain flight level three five zero."

"Yabba Dabba Five Six Five, two five zero climbing three five zero."

No need to make it more complicated than necessary. Keep it concise. No need to say "we are departing two five zero at this time at thirty seconds past the hour and planning on climbing to the altitude you just said in that clearance of three five zero and we'll be leaving right now, thank you." Just state the altitude you're vacating and the altitude to which you've been cleared, separated by "climbing," or "descending" as appropriate. No need to say "leaving," "vacating," or any other magic phraseology.

Reporting your vacated altitude or reporting when you vacate an altitude is always a courtesy to the controller if the frequency is not overly congested...it keeps him or her informed and also serves to verify your present altitude.

Reference AIM 5-3-3:


Bear in mind that this is an AIM recommended proceedure, not a "shall" proceedure, and not a regulatory proceedure. It's not mandatory, but a courtesy which is well advised, dependent upon frequency congestion and your own cockpit workload. Not much work is required to make the call as described above, and generally ATC is expecting to hear you read back your altitude clearance...providing your vacating information in one breath is quick and simple.

However, there may be other times when you are on a PD clearance, and you're not necessarily reading back. You're cleared higher or lower at pilot discretion, and you're vacating on our time table. In such a case, you're still best served as a courtesy by reporting vacating the altitude in the same manner described above. "Podunk Five Six Niner, three our zero descending two four zero."

You are correct, Sir!

 

[Booker]

section a) above in the aim does not say to state the altitude leaving, it just says to state that you are vacating for the new assigned altitude. " United 8 climb and maintain FL370" is all that is needed. No where does it say to state the altitude leaving...... it just says to inform them you are vacating.

That's what I was wondering about. Suzuki300's example is not a discretion clearance. His point seems to be that a readback of "climb and maintain flight level [whatever]" is incorrect because it omits the phrase "leaving flight level [whatever]" or its equivalent. And as you mentioned, the sentence in the AIM does not address the content of the report, only that a report "should be made" (emphasis added). I don't have a dog in this fight, except that I want to know the proper way to do things.

 

[paulsalem]

immelman79 and Avbug 5-3-1 does say you must state "leaving".

soarby007 see the end of this post.

This is from Don Brown's column "SAY AGAIN" on avweb. He is a former Atanta Center Controller (just retired a few months ago).

http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/182638-1.html
His columns are full of intesting info on this and may other atc subjects.

=========

While I have you held captive in the holding pattern, let me give you another sermon on the rules. You know that silly rule that says you're supposed to state your altitude leaving when you're assigned a new altitude? You knew it was in there for a reason, didn't you?

AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports
​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight
level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
​

Now we plug in the controller side of the equation from the FAA 7110.65

5-5-5. VERTICAL APPLICATION
​

b. Assign an altitude to an aircraft after the aircraft previously at that altitude has been issued a climb/descent clearance and is observed (valid Mode C), or reports leaving the altitude.
​

There you are in a holding pattern at 12,000 with a dozen other airplanes stacked above you and Approach starts running them again.

ZTL: "Airliner 123 cleared over the SHINE intersection to CLT via the SHINE5 arrival descend and maintain one one thousand.
AIR123: Airliner 123 cleared to CLT down to one one thousand.
ZTL: (sigh). Airliner 123 say altitude leaving.
AIR123: Uh, we're out of twelve.
ZTL: Airliner 234 descend and maintain one two thousand.
AIR234: We're descending to one two thousand Airliner234
ZTL: (big sigh) Airliner 234 say altitude leaving.
AIR234: Airliner 234 is leaving one three thousand for one two thousand.
ZTL: Roger, Airliner345 descend and maintain one three thousand.
​

Have you ever seen a radar scope with a full holding pattern? All those targets dragging those big data blocks over the same spot? Ever tried to observe someone's Mode C when it's like that? We're lucky if we can find your data block, much less observe your Mode C. Getting the picture?

http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/192912-1.html

The most common of phrases in the en route environment are the ones dealing with altitudes. Pilots somehow twist themselves into knots with these phrases and I'm not sure how it happens. There are four simple words I want you to remember:

1. Level
2. Leaving
3. Climbing
4. Descending

If you'll use your callsign and those four words, you're halfway home on using correct phraseology.
You can read about this is the AIM but it's kind-of like that communications exercise in class. You know, the one where you try to give the guy (who's playing the role of the real dumb robot/computer) precise instructions on how to strike a match. In other words, it's frustrating to put it all together.
I've already covered the first phrase but I'll do it again so you can string all this together:

"Atlanta Center, Cessna One Two Three Four Five, level six thousand." ​

Who you're calling (Atlanta Center), who you are (Cessna N12345) and what you are doing (level 6,000).
But what happens if you aren't level?

Atlanta Center, Cessna One Two Three Four Five, leaving four thousand six hundred, climbing to six thousand. ​

Gasp! I used the dreaded "to" word! Well, yes I did. So does the AIM:

AIM 5-3-1 (a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.
EXAMPLE-
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
​

Now before somebody swoons, let's think about this thing. There is no such altitude as "two six thousand." That would be Flight Level two six zero.

"Atlanta Center, Air Force One, leaving Flight Level one eight five, climbing to Flight Level two six zero."​

If you want to avoid something, avoid these phrases that really aren't in the book: "for", "out of", "at", "up to", "down to" and a dozen other ways people have found to confuse the issue.

"We're out of eight for ten." ​

"... with you at six." ​

"Airliner six forty six for fourteen." (Heard that one the other day.) ​

"Atlanta Center, Airliner Six Forty, leaving six thousand, climbing to one four thousand." ​

See the difference? There's another difference you should note: If you'll always say "climbing to" or "descending to" -- when you start flying in the higher altitudes -- you'll give the controller a chance to catch the error when you mistake a heading assignment for an altitude change. You see, the habits you're learning now will stick with you throughout your flying career. You may not ever become an airline pilot but you just might get rich and buy yourself one of those new VLJs one day.

"Eclipse One One Victor Juliet, fly heading two one zero."​

"Two one zero eleven veejay"​

It takes about 10 to 15 seconds for a turn to become noticeable on a Center controller's radarscope. The controller isn't going to sit there and watch your target until it turns; he'll go do something else -- work some other airplanes -- and then come back to see if the turn has taken effect. It's a really nasty surprise to find out that, instead of turning, the pilot has descended. Trust me. I've seen it happen. Using correct phraseology can prevent it.

"Eclipse One One Victor Juliet, fly heading two one zero." ​

"Eclipse One One Victor Juliet, leaving flight level two five zero, descending flight level two one zero."​

"Eclipse One One Victor Juliet, negative, maintain flight level two five zero. Turn left heading two one zero.​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Also.... while were at it..... "looking" or "Got 'em on the TCAS/fishfinder" is not an acceptable response to a traffic call out!

 

[paulsalem]

On a side note: people say the AIM isn't regulatory. Well ok I've heard that too.

But that's where you'll find how not to fly into a mountain while doing a missed approach from a circle-to-land approach. I don't think, "Well the AIM isn't regulatory will keep you alive."

Yes, this is a bit of an extreme example, but where does it say that we can pick and choose what to follow.

(I'm as guilty of this as the next guy. This is just a thought.)

 

[Booker]

immelman79 and Avbug 5-3-1 does say you must state "leaving"...Don Brown's column "SAY AGAIN" on avweb.

Cool, thanks for the post! I figured Don must have addressed it at some point; I just hadn't gone over to AvWeb yet to fish for it. I've only recently begun to read his columns...I'll have to move on to the back issues.

 

[avbug]

On a side note: people say the AIM isn't regulatory. Well ok I've heard that too.

But that's where you'll find how not to fly into a mountain while doing a missed approach from a circle-to-land approach. I don't think, "Well the AIM isn't regulatory will keep you alive."

That the AIM isn't regulatory isn't a matter of opinion, but fact.

What the AIM does do, however, is compile proceedures and reiterate regulation, and provide the standard for operations. Everything found in the AIM can also be found elsewhere...in regulation, in FAA Orders, in Advisory Circulars, and other sources. It's an information manual, which compiles the information one needs to know to operate within the system.

 

[climbhappy]

what about decimals?

I was trying to show a friend with his private who just got back into flying some things about standard phraseology. he'll be working on his instrument.

as we were listening and we of course covered things like leaving an altitude, a guy chimes in leaving 1.5 for 10. i do it all the time.

what does ATC have to say regarding the use od decimals in the read back?

 

[avbug]

You ask a two part question. A spoken decimal point in communications from an FAA point of view is spoken as "point," though from an ICAO and military point of view it's spoken as "decimal."

AIM 4-2-8:

e. When a radio frequency contains a decimal point, the decimal point is spoken as “POINT.”
EXAMPLE-
122.1 one two two point one
NOTE -
ICAO procedures require the decimal point be spoken as “DECIMAL.” The FAA will honor such usage by military aircraft and all other aircraft required to use ICAO procedures.

However, I don't think that's what you're asking. You want to know if it's okay to use slang altitude descriptions for altitude, instead of proper phraseology.

The FAA is clear on the proper use of altitudes and numbers, as found in the Aeronautical Information Manual, Chapter four, section 2, subsection 9. If you don't have a copy of the AIM, you need one...and then can look these things up.

AIM 4-2-9

a. Up to but not including 18,000 feet MSL, state the separate digits of the thousands plus the hundreds if appropriate.
EXAMPLE-
1. 12,000 one two thousand
2. 12,500 one two thousand five hundred
b. At and above 18,000 feet MSL (FL 180), state the words “flight level” followed by the separate digits of the flight level.
EXAMPLE-
1. 190 Flight Level One Niner Zero
2. 275 Flight Level Two Seven Five

 

[paulsalem]

Yea AvBug did the leg work on this one. Basically don't use the "One Point Five climbing...".

 

[nosehair]

5-3-1 does say you must state "leaving".

Thank you, paulsalem, for your input.

I am a firm believer of saying the words "leaving xx thousand for xx thousand", when I actually do it. Repeating back the clearance is not a report, unless i say it in the read-back; "Leaving..."

There are times (single pilot) when you get an altitude change and you can't make the power/pitch change at the same moment you read back the order, so a call that you are actually leaving is appropriate. This comes up more in training than anywhere else, but is still applicable in every day flying. Sure, if you are on top of it and start your climb/descent as you are reading back, say "leaving", but if you need a few seconds to make the change, don't say "leaving" when you havn't, and report it when you do.

It has become accepted bad habit because atc allows it because of the mode c txpdr function, but that doesn't make it right.

99.9% of the time, it doesn't matter. It's just that .1% of the time that I will eventually run into that I am concerned about. Pilots and controllers make mistakes. Why up the ante by depending on your mode c being monitored by an alert controller?

And I didn't make this up, it's straight out of the book.