Question for US Air and AWA Pilots

[Bubba Dog]

As to item "D" you will maintain your position via percentile slotting. I believe this may have been what happened when Trump Shuttle and USAir merged their list and also I believe that arbitrator is the same one that will hear this one that heard the Trump Shuttle integration,so maybe some precedence has been set.

 

[Bubba Dog]

I have a friend of mine at AWA but is furloughed from US and still has his US seniority number. How is it going to work for him? Is he going to be able to pick which number (AWA or US) that will give his best seniority or will he be stuck with his AWA number since that is where he currently works?

He will be slotted and would be to his advantage to keep AWA for longevity puposes.

 

[Itsallsogood]

The 19 USAirways pilots currently on both lists will have their choice of which position they want. Parker has agreed to longevity pay so one could benefit from claiming a U number even if it puts them lower on the overall list(because he is 55).
Becareful please stop the whining. You are wrong. Dave brings more to the merger than any furloughee. Get over it.

 

[Bubba Dog]

The 19 USAirways pilots currently on both lists will have their choice of which position they want. Parker has agreed to longevity pay so one could benefit from claiming a U number even if it puts them lower on the overall list(because he is 55).
Becareful please stop the whining. You are wrong. Dave brings more to the merger than any furloughee. Get over it.

If the furloughees had not been furloughed in the first place there would be no USAirways today. You had better stop while you are ahead because there is a very high probability there will be slotting involving furloughees. If you keep on like this it will just mean more crow you will have to digest.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Bubba you are correct. Nicleau <sp>, may slot the furloghees in. Who knows? However, according to the merger comittees.....both sides agree, very unlikely. It is the slotting of the active and active out for personal reasons that is sending this to arbitration. NOT the furloghees, MDA and J4J'ers.

 

[Itsallsogood]

OK 3 hours later.... and I have finally stopped laughing. "If it were not for the U furloghees USAir would not be in business." Un-friggin-believable.

 

[Bubba Dog]

OK 3 hours later.... and I have finally stopped laughing. "If it were not for the U furloghees USAir would not be in business." Un-friggin-believable.

All I'm saying, if USAir had cancelled all the furloughs and keep the excess on the property and keep on paying them it would have drove USAir out of business and no merger today.

I still do not understand why you can not see the winfall the AW pilots will receive with the U retirements. You probably do understand but not ready to admit it yet.I guess the arbitrator will have to settle that. I think our discussion has reached the point of diminishing returns. Enjoy the rest of your day outside but try to not to laugh to loud to yourself or your neighbors might start wondering.

 

[TWA Dude]

I still do not understand why you can not see the winfall the AW pilots will receive with the U retirements.

Nicolau took future retirements into account for the USAir Shuttle integration. It's but one of many issues that he'll have to consider.

 

[GOTAFLY]

Budda dog , Since when has there been a merger were furloughed pilot were ever concidered, except for the bottom of the combined list? Not to stir the pot but I can't remember one.

 

[OnTheDole]

Well I see we've gotten the windfall seekers all spooled up again.quote]

My windfall went poof when DP agreed to this whole mess rather than let US die on the vine.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Budda dog , Since when has there been a merger were furloughed pilot were ever concidered, except for the bottom of the combined list? Not to stir the pot but I can't remember one.

I believe American has a history involving a merger with pilots on furlough. Not sure when or with who though.

The closest merger to this situation was Pan Am - National. There the furloughees got credit for longevity (for the most part). Arbitrator Gill, who is now the vice chairman of the NMB used some creativity is sewing those lists together. If DOH were actually the policy, then the plain and unambiguous meaning of DOH would prevail. But that's not the policy so nobody really knows. I suspect the combined list will look a lot like the Pan Am - National list with a combination of DOH, slotting and longevity and fences. (This is a post from another forum about this subject)

Also In 1985 Mississippi Valley Airlines and Air Wisconsin merged and the furloughed pilots from Air Wisconsin were integrated as if they had never left the property.

 

[Bubba Dog]

Budda dog , Since when has there been a merger were furloughed pilot were ever concidered, except for the bottom of the combined list? Not to stir the pot but I can't remember one.

Neither can I,but what do I know. I haven't really studied them that much. I am just a lowly hopeful furloughed U type. I do know that this new merger ALPA process is very recent and doesn't have much of a track record so there is room for a lot of unknowns and precedents that will be set. You must remeber it was always DOH in the olden days and you AW guys are very lucky to have the new policy or you all would be FO's.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Hey Bubba... actually I do see the attrition point you are making. And yes I agree it is a very valid point. My best friend and roomate is furloughed, from a hire date of 1999. He will not go back if recalled. The point is USAirways was done, finished. Anything now is a complete windfall for the active U pilots. You may understand but not want to admit it but AWA saved U when AWA bought U. Why should the AWA pilots suffer from the overall U windfall?

 

[Hpilot]

Well I see we've gotten the windfall seekers all spooled up again.quote]

My windfall went poof when DP agreed to this whole mess rather than let US die on the vine.

Amen Brother, I'd be holding a nice line by now if we hadn't tied off to the Titanic.

 

[GOTAFLY]

I agree. But we "ALPA" changed the merger policy. My Dad retired old PSA, had the merger with Us Air not had happened he would not have had the choice for the lump sum retirement in 96 with longevity. So my point is things change and all we can do is hope for the best and get involved. As for me I 'am on my 5th airline and one thing that well always be true is change.

 

[Bubba Dog]

Hey Bubba... actually I do see the attrition point you are making. And yes I agree it is a very valid point. My best friend and roomate is furloughed, from a hire date of 1999. He will not go back if recalled. The point is USAirways was done, finished. Anything now is a complete windfall for the active U pilots. You may understand but not want to admit it but AWA saved U when AWA bought U. Why should the AWA pilots suffer from the overall U windfall?

U's system and assets saved your long term bacon. Pilot's definitely are not long range strategic business practitioners. That's for sure. This discussion is starting to resemble a dog chasing his tail,never really accomplishing anything. Good night.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Actually you are wrong again. Parker wanted PHL just like Midway but could not out bid Southwest for the gates. AWA had to buy USAirways to keep Southwest in check. USAirways was done.. finito finished. They bring nothing but a whining, condesending lousy attitude.... . I was the 7 years I know.

 

[LearLove]

The arbitrator will decide if you were mainline or not, not any promised that the U pilots made.

I think the arbitrator will just take us former cel guys and tack us to the bottom of the merged list when its all said and done. (and thats all I would ask for annway)

I don't think an arbitrator has the power to take a group of people within a group (in this case 95 or so former cel guys that are now on the bottom of the mainline list) and just make them "dust in the wind". If you appear on the list that is used in the merger you will have a place in the end and in our case (former cel) it will be tacked to the bottom of the bottom.

If I were a betting man I'd say it will turn out something like the following:

Currently active U and AWA guys will go DOH to a point then some kind of slotting. Then the APL guys (non-recalled ones or ones at j4j) will be tacked on the bottom. On the bottom of thoes will be us former cel guys that went to MDA. After that either a flow up for the remaining WO guys, if its worked out, or hiring off the street.

For AWA guys - How many guys on your list were hired from July 2004 until you stopped hiring?

 

[LearLove]

Not my fight but it was my understanding that the MDA pilots were placed on the list by the U MEC to try to make it seem like they had more pilots if it was a relative senority merger. Then the active U guys would come out better in the long run. But that doesn't mean thats what the combined list will have on it. Just my .02

O this is just plain stupid. I know the U mec has tried to pull some capers in the past but not this. First, 220 of the MDA guys were "normal APL" guys so they were already on the APL list when they went to MDA. Then that leaves about 100 MDA positions that were filled with guys like me from PDT and ALG. Of thoes 100 only about 80 or so appear on the post MDA ALP and u senority list.

So what your saying above is that the U mec went out of their way to "pad" a list (that was at one point 1800+ guys) by 80 or so more guys. Yeah there are already 1800 guys on the APL list - padding it by 80 or so more is really gonna get them somewhere.

Come on, how stupid is that? Or how stupid are you?

 

[BenderGonzales]

CRM lear... you might have to work with these guys some day.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Yeah, I saw that,unbelievable a express carrier saved the day supposedly. I realize there is a lot BS floating around and a filter is definitely needed. The bottom line is both groups will be better of in the long run because of this merger. Let the arbitrator's do their jobs and just move on from there.

No "supposedly" here,Bubba. It's the real deal ,mentioned by Parker at The Mar 29 Brown Bag Lunch. My jaw dropped when he said it and I don't even work there. If there is anybody who saved U's "bacon" its Air Wisconsin!

PHXFLYR

 

[TWA Dude]

For AWA guys - How many guys on your list were hired from July 2004 until you stopped hiring?

We hired 128 pilots after July '04. (12 were hired during July).

To all:
Why must pilots gloat "We saved you?" We're pilots, not management. No pilots at AWA or USAirways saved anybody's job. Some pilots just think the world revolves around them.

 

[PHXFLYR]

U's system and assets saved your long term bacon. Pilot's definitely are not long range strategic business practitioners. That's for sure. This discussion is starting to resemble a dog chasing his tail,never really accomplishing anything. Good night.

Really? The North Atlantic system out of PHL is pretty weak compared to Continental's EWR system or Delta's JFK system. You have AirTran giving the budget conscious travler in the Southeastern U.S a low fare alternative to the expensive (until recently) air fares out of your CLT hub; Jet Blue is giving you a run for your money between the Northeast Corridor and Florida markets,but thats OK because nobody has made money in those markets in years. And lastly Southwest pushed you guys out of Baltimore and are starting to invade your turf at PHL and PIT. The point I'm trying to make here is that the "assets" you claim that will "save our long term bacon" are pretty tarnished at best and will need quite a bit of attention before they ever realize their full potenetial. The jury is still out as to whether this can be accomplished sucessfully or not.


PHXFLYR

 

[BeCareful!]

Well, at least the North Atlantic system out of PHL is profitable. It's also exactly 100% stronger than the North Atlantic system AWA had in place.

Of course, you guys can probably find a way to argue that one, too!

 

[Bubba Dog]

Really? The North Atlantic system out of PHL is pretty weak compared to Continental's EWR system or Delta's JFK system. You have AirTran giving the budget conscious travler in the Southeastern U.S a low fare alternative to the expensive (until recently) air fares out of your CLT hub; Jet Blue is giving you a run for your money between the Northeast Corridor and Florida markets,but thats OK because nobody has made money in those markets in years. And lastly Southwest pushed you guys out of Baltimore and are starting to invade your turf at PHL and PIT. The point I'm trying to make here is that the "assets" you claim that will "save our long term bacon" are pretty tarnished at best and will need quite a bit of attention before they ever realize their full potenetial. The jury is still out as to whether this can be accomplished sucessfully or not.


PHXFLYR

Time will tell if it was the right thing to do or not.

Airtran has very little benefit with the business traveler,they are almost all leisure with not much incentives,ie FFM,allainces,etc and the list goes on and on.Delta is getting ready to take the fight to them.

U's international is better than what AW had which was almost nothing and PHL has great international presence/ potential.

The FL market is something that will probably never be extremely profitable no matter what because of all the competition. FL is a necessity for FFM and service destinations.

Without U's assets it would be a very steep uphill time constrained process that AW may have pulled off without U. Don't forget the votes on Wallstreet are very pro for the combination,that should say loads of the combination.

As to SW, to many hubs in the BWI area with DCA,Dulles(Metrojet),and PHL,something had to give. SW will have their own high cost problems soon as evidenced by managements concern with labor rates and fuel hedges running out.

AW has a fantastic mgt team that should bode well for the entire operation.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Time will tell if it was the right thing to do or not.

Airtran has very little benefit with the business traveler,they are almost all leisure with not much incentives,ie FFM,allainces,etc and the list goes on and on.Delta is getting ready to take the fight to them.

U's international is better than what AW had which was almost nothing and PHL has great international presence/ potential.

The FL market is something that will probably never be extremely profitable no matter what because of all the competition. FL is a necessity for FFM and service destinations.

Without U's assets it would be a very steep uphill time constrained process that AW may have pulled off without U. Don't forget the votes on Wallstreet are very pro for the combination,that should say loads of the combination.

As to SW, to many hubs in the BWI area with DCA,Dulles(Metrojet),and PHL,something had to give. SW will have their own high cost problems soon as evidenced by managements concern with labor rates and fuel hedges running out.

AW has a fantastic mgt team that should bode well for the entire operation.

I suppose....but sometimes I wonder if they bit off more than they can chew.
PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Well, at least the North Atlantic system out of PHL is profitable. It's also exactly 100% stronger than the North Atlantic system AWA had in place.

Of course, you guys can probably find a way to argue that one, too!

And why would a small LCC with hubs in PHX and LAS have a North Atlantic system in the first place...???? Another "marketing genius" heard from.....


PHXFLYR

 

[Itsallsogood]

Becarefull I see you are a CRJ200/700 guy. Care to tell me how you screwing the original PSA'ers for your own benefit helps the company. And didn't 100% of the old USAirways fly the North Atlantic when they went bankrupt, twice?

 

[abefly]

O this is just plain stupid. I know the U mec has tried to pull some capers in the past but not this. First, 220 of the MDA guys were "normal APL" guys so they were already on the APL list when they went to MDA. Then that leaves about 100 MDA positions that were filled with guys like me from PDT and ALG. Of thoes 100 only about 80 or so appear on the post MDA ALP and u senority list.

So what your saying above is that the U mec went out of their way to "pad" a list (that was at one point 1800+ guys) by 80 or so more guys. Yeah there are already 1800 guys on the APL list - padding it by 80 or so more is really gonna get them somewhere.

Come on, how stupid is that? Or how stupid are you?

Like I said I don't know....You are right I am just a dumb 2 year f.o. at awa who came from Mesa...But you know what...I will always be senior to you!!!! Good Day!

 

[Carl S.]

Hey,
Before I jump in with my two cents, I need some claification. I left Jetstream/PSA in 1998 for AWA. What is a APL, CEL list. All I know is that there were pilots from U on the street and they started hiring in late 1998 till 2000 and those are the only mainline pilots I know about. What was the whole J4J deal and didn't the planes always have "EXPRESS" on them when operated with J4J pilots?
When we were express scum, the mainline guys always said we might one day get an interview, but were never mainline! The merger has been great to me, I was less than ten out to upgrade last Jan. 2005 and today I am less than ten out to upgrade! I believe U has had upgrades in the mean time, but then the U guys(especially the laid off ones) saved us.