Question for US Air and AWA Pilots

[PHXFLYR]

hey, how about you f@#$ off. O where was it you came from, MESA? And you have what, something like 2 years sen at AWA - OK there MR. Old Grizzled Expert - whatever.

You know, I'd tell you where I came from,but given your past experience with them, I don't think you'd like the answer.....


PHXFLYR

 

[steveg]

How about some fact checking here.

The CEL pilots are not now, and have never been considered mainline pilots. They were not on the list until after the merger, a blatant attempt by AAA pilots to pad the list and try to further divide the pie and help their own cause in the seniority argument. There is nothing in any contract giving the CEL pilots (except those originally furloughed by AAA) the chance or right to ever bid into a AAA mainline airplane, PERIOD.

Unfortuantely, being on a certificate does not equate being on a seniority list. This is proven by case law and past precedent. The CEL carriers were a DIFFERENT airline.

Nothing against the pilots, I'd love to see them get a flow through agreement after all this is said and done. But to try and include them in the seniority arbitration is an offensive attempt by the AAA mainline pilots to help out their own cause.

Please let's not start the 2 year AWA wonder argument. I've been here 2 years, and most in my seniority have been around the block a few times.

 

[Crzipilot]

Stevg,

Actually you are wrong. The same document that allowed them to flow up to MDA, gave them access / the chance / and the right to bid into a AAA mainline airplane. Same document, and I think 1 or 2 paragraphs (maybe even the same paragraph) that allowed them to goto MDA. So uhmmm...before you start talking case law and past precedent. You better check the current precendent. PERIOD

Oh and before you ask for proof etc etc...this issue has been beaten more than a dead horse, search around here and you'll see all the cut and pastes that state such, quoted from such agreements. In fact, as it stands now, ANY CEL pilot has the right to bid into a vacancy at US before any hiring off the street. That was the deal for j4j....

 

[steveg]

They didn't flow to MDA, they left previous jobs and went to work for MDA as newhires. I say it again, they were never allowed to bid AAA mainline. Not starting a p'ssing match, like I said, I have nothing against them and think a flow through would be a great idea. Also, AAA sold the MDA operation, as in it is gone.

We obviously won't agree on this and probably many other issues, that's why Arbitrators are coming ino the fold. I read through this thread though, and it seemed as if it was common knowledge that the CEL guys were going to get a spot on the new list, and this just isn't true. Much like the furlough argument, you think they deserve a spot, other's see them as not being on the property currently working for the NEW company. If the AAA mainline guys want to fight for their spot, we'll see. I stand by my comment that it was just a tactic to get better seniority for the active active mainline guys.

 

[LearLove]

I'm not jealou,s not matter how that arbitarator decides Lear will be junior to me. I'm covered both ways.
I was just wondering how he came to his asertations about mainline or non mainlie pilots.

where the he11 do you see me spouting off about being a "mainline" guy? I was furloughed from MDA, offered a j4j and my name appears on the bottom of the U APL list and U senority list. That is how it worked out in the end. What, do think I'm makeing this up or something?

Anyway if you look back a my first thread on this post I was just commenting on how our "fab" new management (mixed with some old of course) managed to take a fine operating website and turn it into a slower running and harder site to purchase our product. Log on for yourself and see.

 

[LearLove]

most of you guys here on this thread are posting stuff thats way wrong because you don't understand the situation both now and in the past. Get your facts inline before you start accusing people - especially when thoes people had no say in the situation in the first place.

 

[abefly]

Not my fight but it was my understanding that the MDA pilots were placed on the list by the U MEC to try to make it seem like they had more pilots if it was a relative senority merger. Then the active U guys would come out better in the long run. But that doesn't mean thats what the combined list will have on it. Just my .02

 

[Itsallsogood]

Abe you are correct. Crizi and Lear are ...well.... not so correct. Just some facts. Nobody on the East Merger committee has negoitiated with the words DOH. There are 3 categories being discussed. 1) Active pilots actually flying the line. Aprox. 2400 U and 1800 AWA. 2) Active pilots out on.....medical, personal leave etc. 3) Furloughed pilots from the list of the snap shot date....who knows.....April or Sept. 2005. Both sides agree, may argue,but agree.... the furloughees do not bring anything to the merger. An active AWA pilot cannot call up a U furloughee to fly his (the AWA pilot's) trip. The negotiations are then, where to position the Active pilots on a list and where do the inactive ones get pin-pointed into. The furloughees argue that they should benefit from the attrition, however, the East had 4 independent investment bankers ALL tell them that USAirways was going out of business. FACT. The lowest pilot on the U list has 18 years. When he was hired (18 years ago) he was on the bottom of that same list. Meaning? NO CARRER EXPECTATION. AWA was hiring.. upgrading (80 months to upgrade) with new planes arriving. And AWA was profiting. Meaning? Better carrer expectations. There is a ton of info (facts) if you just call up the reps. Keep in touch with them. Good luck to us all.

 

[Bubba Dog]

No argument- By Doug Parker's own admission in public several times(look on the Hub or Compass under crew communications) AW would have been in bankruptcy by now with many folks already furloughed with little hope of cash infusion from anyone because AW has lost it's past competitive edge with lower labor costs since everyone has come down to AW's level since 9/11. Only hope DP said in that scenerio was a merger but no one has any money or desire to pick up AW in these times because AW did not offer much,just two low capacity hubs with a lot of meaningful competition from SW and others and all AW relied on was low yielding leisure traffic. USAir had some great assets and a lot of high yield business traffic that AW was lacking, not to even mention the international presence. So don't be so quick to kill the old USAir, AW was going to be in very bad shape very soon also. We both saved each other! If the furloughs had not happened at USAir there would be no USairways today and because of that fact the furloughees gave the most(100%pay cut) and brought the most to the merger. There will be a huge winfall by the AW group due to USAir retirements and this is why the furloughees must be included fairly in this integration and I don't mean a staple job.

I also believe we have to work together as a team to make this a very successful company.

 

[Itsallsogood]

OK Prove it. You can not. And ANY investment can not either. Fact. AWA was very healthy. ATA buyout prior will prove that. At the time $$$$ was being offered to the AWA management for 3 possible buyouts. ATA, Hawaiian and (too much stock value) Air Tran. The money was there for AWA. Are you a Kool Aid drinker? OR JUST WHEN IT BENIFITS YOU?

 

[k9nole]

I do believe that MDA was USAirways. It was testified in court for the "change of assets" for USAirways selling the 170's to Republic.

How the arbitrator figures it out is anyones guess.

My prediction for USAirways furlough call-backs would be in the 50%.

 

[Bubba Dog]

If you can obtain access to the Hub or Compass go listen to what DP has said several times as to what would have happened if U and AW didn't merge. It is under crew communications or something like that, it is the last option at the top of the login page. It is the sessions that Doug holds each month at recurrent with pilots and flight attendants. DP said several times they did not not have enough cash to make it through the last winter.

You seem to be very defensive, cann't you carry on a normal discussion?

That's the first I have heard of the 3 possible buyouts you mentioned. Do you have any links to back this up?

 

[abefly]

Abe you are correct. Crizi and Lear are ...well.... not so correct. Just some facts. Nobody on the East Merger committee has negoitiated with the words DOH. There are 3 categories being discussed. 1) Active pilots actually flying the line. Aprox. 2400 U and 1800 AWA. 2) Active pilots out on.....medical, personal leave etc. 3) Furloughed pilots from the list of the snap shot date....who knows.....April or Sept. 2005. Both sides agree, may argue,but agree.... the furloughees do not bring anything to the merger. An active AWA pilot cannot call up a U furloughee to fly his (the AWA pilot's) trip. The negotiations are then, where to position the Active pilots on a list and where do the inactive ones get pin-pointed into. The furloughees argue that they should benefit from the attrition, however, the East had 4 independent investment bankers ALL tell them that USAirways was going out of business. FACT. The lowest pilot on the U list has 18 years. When he was hired (18 years ago) he was on the bottom of that same list. Meaning? NO CARRER EXPECTATION. AWA was hiring.. upgrading (80 months to upgrade) with new planes arriving. And AWA was profiting. Meaning? Better carrer expectations. There is a ton of info (facts) if you just call up the reps. Keep in touch with them. Good luck to us all.

Itsallsogood, if thats the case then why did the US air MEC got for D.O.H. for bidding purposes on the 190's?

Special MEC Hotline - June 20, 2006
From: JR Baker, MEC Chairman
To: All AWA Pilots
In this issue:
1. Embraer 190 Update

1. Embraer 190 Update
I regret to inform you that Embraer 190 talks have broken down between the US Airways and AWA MECs. The MEC officers and negotiators for both MECs had been working feverishly on a joint sharing proposal between the two pilot groups on the fair and equitable sharing of the E190 pilot slots. It was our belief that both MECs had granted their officers and negotiators the authority to negotiate a fair deal. While the east and west had a deal in principle, we were waiting for the elected representatives of the east MEC to sign off on the agreement. Ultimately, the east MEC failed to ratify this tentative agreement and reverted to their original position.
The east MEC's original and current position is that they want 60 percent of the E190 slots, and they also want bidding seniority to be date of hire.

 

[joevollers]

........

 

[PHXFLYR]

Itsallsogood, if thats the case then why did the US air MEC got for D.O.H. for bidding purposes on the 190's?

Special MEC Hotline - June 20, 2006
From: JR Baker, MEC Chairman
To: All AWA Pilots
In this issue:
1. Embraer 190 Update

1. Embraer 190 Update
I regret to inform you that Embraer 190 talks have broken down between the US Airways and AWA MECs. The MEC officers and negotiators for both MECs had been working feverishly on a joint sharing proposal between the two pilot groups on the fair and equitable sharing of the E190 pilot slots. It was our belief that both MECs had granted their officers and negotiators the authority to negotiate a fair deal. While the east and west had a deal in principle, we were waiting for the elected representatives of the east MEC to sign off on the agreement. Ultimately, the east MEC failed to ratify this tentative agreement and reverted to their original position.
The east MEC's original and current position is that they want 60 percent of the E190 slots, and they also want bidding seniority to be date of hire.

They didn't. That's what they wanted. Big difference..... and the main reason why this issue, like all the others,will be decided by an arbitrator on Aug 1st and 2nd. What's that old saying ? "The only thing we can agree on is to disagree?"


PHXFLYR

 

[abefly]

They didn't. That's what they wanted. Big difference..... and the main reason why this issue, like all the others,will be decided by an arbitrator on Aug 1st and 2nd. What's that old saying ? "The only thing we can agree on is to disagree?"


PHXFLYR

THX PHX i was simply saying they were going for DOH also. I just dont know how to spell. I guess thats cause I'm a dumb rookie 2 year AWA Pilot who came from Mesa......LOL....OK Lear.....Argue on....Im gonna have a beer and wait for the arbitrator in April

 

[Itsallsogood]

First..... Bubba I do have access.... Thank you. Now, ...again PROVE IT please. Please show me the numbers that AWA was entering Chapter 11 7.....like U was.

Second....there is some E190 block thing being proposed....4 U pilots 4 AWA pilots.... second block same thing. NO seniority issues affected. They will rotate scheduling rights...?? huh? ( Me too) .

 

[Itsallsogood]

Confused yet? The DOH is coming up on this block E190 flying..... that is it.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Anyway...If you are furloughed.....well don't expect anything. Plus, you do not have the GOD given right to have it. AND STOP WHINING !

 

[abefly]

Itsallgood...were you drunk posting????? Right on!!!!!!!

 

[Bubba Dog]

Anyway...If you are furloughed.....well don't expect anything. Plus, you do not have the GOD given right to have it. AND STOP WHINING !

When did God get involved? You don't get what you deserve in life, only what you negotiate. I expect the furloughees will be slotted in their respective percentiles other wise it will be a huge winfall to all the AW pilots when it comes to retirements.

I don't understand your E190 thread block thing. What are you talking about?

You need to log in and listen to the subjects relevant to your question, "prove it". I cannot give you the exact meeting. Maybe I will go back and see if I can find it again for you. It was mentioned several times by DP. And by the way where are the links concerning your 3 proposed mergers I requested?

I am not whining,just trying to carry on a normal discussion. You know point, counterpoint,etc.

 

[PHXFLYR]

When did God get involved? You don't get what you deserve in life, only what you negotiate. I expect the furloughees will be slotted in their respective percentiles other wise it will be a huge winfall to all the AW pilots when it comes to retirements.

I don't understand your E190 thread block thing. What are you talking about?

You need to log in and listen to the subjects relevant to your question, "prove it". I cannot give you the exact meeting. Maybe I will go back and see if I can find it again for you. It was mentioned several times by DP. And by the way where are the links concerning your 3 proposed mergers I requested?

I am not whining,just trying to carry on a normal discussion. You know point, counterpoint,etc.

I think Parker was quoted as saying that AWA sans merger (my personal preference,by the way) would have been in dire financial straights 12-16 months down the road with a possible CH 11 filing and no one willing to provide DIP financing if we did. I also think Parker is a BS Artist. I mean if ATA was able to get DIP financing and they are only half the size of what they once were, I think AWA would have found some willing investors stupid enough to invest here,too. I for one was willing to take that chance,rather than put up with all the merger related crap......but then,what do I know? according to Lear, I'm only a dumb "2 year F/O".....


PHXFLYR


Oh and by the way,another interesting Parker quote from the March 29 Brown Bag lunch at the CLT Training Center which I attend. USAir needed the 125 million dollar deal with Air Wisconsin because they didn't have enough cash on hand to stay in business until the Sept 29th closing date. Don't believe me? Acess the hub and play back the video for yourself..... PHXFLYR

 

[Bubba Dog]

First..... Bubba I do have access.... Thank you. Now, ...again PROVE IT please. Please show me the numbers that AWA was entering Chapter 11 7.....like U was.

Second....there is some E190 block thing being proposed....4 U pilots 4 AWA pilots.... second block same thing. NO seniority issues affected. They will rotate scheduling rights...?? huh? ( Me too) .

OK here it is

Under Crew News on the Hub:

1. 2006 Town Halls: PHX May 22,2006, subtopic Flight Attendant contract.

2. 2006Town Halls: PHX RES,competitive advantage.

3. Under Crew news: PHX Pilots Video 1-24-06 at the 37 minute point.

OK, there you go. I can not prove it with numbers, I am only referencing to what Doug Parker said at those meetings.

 

[Bubba Dog]

I think Parker was quoted as saying that AWA sans merger (my personal preference,by the way) would have been in dire financial straights 12-16 months down the road with a possible CH 11 filing and no one willing to provide DIP financing if we did. I also think Parker is a BS Artist. I mean if ATA was able to get DIP financing and they are only half the size of what they once were, I think AWA would have found some willing investors stupid enough to invest here,too. I for one was willing to take that chance,rather than put up with all the merger related crap......but then,what do I know? according to Lear, I'm only a dumb "2 year F/O".....


PHXFLYR


Oh and by the way,another interesting Parker quote from the March 29 Brown Bag lunch at the CLT Training Center which I attend. USAir needed the 125 million dollar deal with Air Wisconsin because they didn't have enough cash on hand to stay in business until the Sept 29th closing date. Don't believe me? Acess the hub and play back the video for yourself..... PHXFLYR

Yeah, I saw that,unbelievable a express carrier saved the day supposedly. I realize there is a lot BS floating around and a filter is definitely needed. The bottom line is both groups will be better of in the long run because of this merger. Let the arbitrator's do their jobs and just move on from there.

 

[captainjack]

When did God get involved? You don't get what you deserve in life, only what you negotiate. I expect the furloughees will be slotted in their respective percentiles other wise it will be a huge winfall to all the AW pilots when it comes to retirements.

Bubba Dog,

I think you need to read the ALPA Administrative Manual Page 6, paragraph D.

I'll save you some time and post it here:

d: Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status


Q. What was the pre-merger status of the AAA furloughees?
A. Furloughed (simple terms - out of work).

Q. What was the pre-merger status of the last pilot on the AWA list?
A. Flying the line (simple term - working).

Q. What case history do you have that an arbitrator will ignore this tenent of ALPA merger policy and "slot" the furloughees?
A. None

The AAA MEC even communicated this to their pilots in updates last fall. They said that they would fight for the furloughees (as they should because they have an obligation to represent their pilots) but case history wasn't on their side.

Arbitrators deal with facts not conjecture. They also don't consider possible future events. AAA was in bankruptcy and liquidation was going to happen on October 1st. This wasn't a possible future event but fact. Parker can say all he wants about a future BK filing by AWA, but at the time of the merger, AWA was making money and wasn't even in Chapter 11. Nicolau will toss the BK argument if the east guys try to make it as it is irrelevant because it is a future event that can't be proved.

 

[BeCareful!]

Well I see we've gotten the windfall seekers all spooled up again. 1500 numbers to pad Dave's career, all on the backs of the pilots who took the ultimate career sacrifice to save US Airways.

You guys should hire Ann Coulter to champion your cause; she's good at furthering the kind of inflammatory arguments you guys are using to paint the US Air furloughee like they're aviation nincompoops who should sit back quietly and go behind Dave on the list. Dave was a regional boy until a year ago; he should not have a 1500 pilot furlough cushion of seasoned professionals who were at the major airlines many, many years before him.

Anyone who thinks little, struggling AWA somehow saved US Airways is inane. It was financed by the outside for the benefit of all: employees, customers, and taxpayers.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Yeah, I saw that,unbelievable a express carrier saved the day supposedly. I realize there is a lot BS floating around and a filter is definitely needed. The bottom line is both groups will be better of in the long run because of this merger. Let the arbitrator's do their jobs and just move on from there.

Sort of like the "tail waggin'the dog....",isn't it? But,hey;whatever works. I agree. Both groups will be better off in the long run. We all have the opportunity to put something together that could be a force to be reckoned with in an industry that is very competitive .Too bad we'll all caught up in our own retoric and vitrol to realize this.And once the arbitrator comes up with a new senority list, no one will be happy. As for the BS filter, its been installed long ago.(amazing how many out there both East and West choose to get all spooled up on rumors rather than calling their Reps to find out "the rest of the story" ....(sigh )). Now if we can all just remember the fight isn't between us, its with management and the other airlines that we compete with,we'll all be the better for it.


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Well I see we've gotten the windfall seekers all spooled up again. 1500 numbers to pad Dave's career, all on the backs of the pilots who took the ultimate career sacrifice to save US Airways.

You guys should hire Ann Coulter to champion your cause; she's good at furthering the kind of inflammatory arguments you guys are using to paint the US Air furloughee like they're aviation nincompoops who should sit back quietly and go behind Dave on the list. Dave was a regional boy until a year ago; he should not have a 1500 pilot furlough cushion of seasoned professionals who were at the major airlines many, many years before him.

Anyone who thinks little, struggling AWA somehow saved US Airways is inane. It was financed by the outside for the benefit of all: employees, customers, and taxpayers.

Maybe so. But apparently these investors did not want to risk their money in USAir as it existed prior to the merger. Nor did they have any faith in your 'Management" (?) team. They saw what Parker did turning AWA around the last several years and was hoping he would jump ship and try to turn USAir around (yeah,....right) When he balked, they sweetened the pot. Hence ,the merger. Whether you like it, or whether you don't (and I don't);it's here to stay. And spare us "Westies" the "windfall" rhetoric,will you please? It's past the point of getting old.

PHXFLYR

 

[Bubba Dog]

Bubba Dog,

I think you need to read the ALPA Administrative Manual Page 6, paragraph D.

I'll save you some time and post it here:

d: Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status


Q. What was the pre-merger status of the AAA furloughees?
A. Furloughed (simple terms - out of work).

Q. What was the pre-merger status of the last pilot on the AWA list?
A. Flying the line (simple term - working).

Q. What case history do you have that an arbitrator will ignore this tenent of ALPA merger policy and "slot" the furloughees?
A. None

The AAA MEC even communicated this to their pilots in updates last fall. They said that they would fight for the furloughees (as they should because they have an obligation to represent their pilots) but case history wasn't on their side.

Arbitrators deal with facts not conjecture. They also don't consider possible future events. AAA was in bankruptcy and liquidation was going to happen on October 1st. This wasn't a possible future event but fact. Parker can say all he wants about a future BK filing by AWA, but at the time of the merger, AWA was making money and wasn't even in Chapter 11. Nicolau will toss the BK argument if the east guys try to make it as it is irrelevant because it is a future event that can't be proved.

Plain and simple, no winfalls(i.e.retirements), which is also in the ALPA merger policy. It will be up to the arbitraitor!

 

[FreightNazi]

I have a friend of mine at AWA but is furloughed from US and still has his US seniority number. How is it going to work for him? Is he going to be able to pick which number (AWA or US) that will give his best seniority or will he be stuck with his AWA number since that is where he currently works?