Question for RJ drivers without VNAV

[Freebrd]

Putting the lowest altitude in and flying the snowflake works but you have to be paying attention (4eyeballs) and adjust VSI to hit the constraints along the arrival, even leveling off for a short time when the flake disappears and then continue the descent when it reappears. Seriously cuts into USAToday time...

 

[Always deferred]

Putting the lowest altitude in and flying the snowflake works but you have to be paying attention (4eyeballs) and adjust VSI to hit the constraints along the arrival, even leveling off for a short time when the flake disappears and then continue the descent when it reappears. Seriously cuts into USAToday time...

Yes on an arrival such as the FRDMM, you cannot just fly the snowflake.

And from what I understand, the ERJ doesn't even have the banana bar.

 

[Leroy Smith]

The "snowflake" looks at the entire decent profile while the VNAV info displayed on the PFD looks at the next waypoint. Fly the snowflake and it should all work out.

there is the rub. Absolutely no way to back yourself up other than being on top of your mental math from top to bottom. If you have an "at or above" or "at or below" it may put you right at the altitude, based on what it sees down the line on the ODP. All well and good until you are a little off the 'flake at just the wrong time. The guys who created these jacked up procedures arent going to be the ones getting violated if you miss an altitude......

PS: watch out for those speeds, they can throw the whole equation out the window......

 

[jetfueljunkey]

Direct to page on FMS

Pull up the Dir to page on FMS and it will give you descent rate for all crossing restrictions. Vert speed and your all set to make all restrictions adjusting vert speed as needed

 

[Flyer1015]

The A320 does not have VNAV, if you have an arrival and set in the lowest altitude, the aircraft will keep on trucking along at your cruise alt until you push to managed the decent. True VNAV aircraft will start down on their own when VNAV is engaged.

It will give you the down hockey stick and tell you to decelerate when at TOD. but again will maintain cruise alt until you tell it otherwise.

Sucks if you ask me.

I disagree. I'd like the airplane to go down when I want it to, not necessarily automatically at TOD. There are even times when ATC keeps you high, flying past the hockey stick. You still stay at your cruise altitude. Would a Boeing start down automatically? That could get you into trouble if you aren't ahead of the game. On the flip side of the coin, you can of course argue the SAN-MSP NWA Airbus would have never overflown MSP if they automatically started down on the hockey stick like a Boeing does.

Edit: Boeing has LNAV and VNAV modes that show up on the FMA, an Airbus does not. It has NAV (like nav in any other FMS jet), and it has a managed descent function which you have to push the altitude knob to activate. You do set the lowest altitude for the arrival and once at or near the hockey stick, start down. It'll hit all points and speeds, and give you advisories if it thinks it won't meet a certain waypoint constraint (like 'more drag' which to be honest is done with a horrible calculation and quite a few times it mentions that even when you don't technically need it). Overall, I'm satisified with the descent functions of the A320.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Yes on an arrival such as the FRDMM, you cannot just fly the snowflake.

And from what I understand, the ERJ doesn't even have the banana bar.

The "banana bar" is a Collins proprietary feature.

 

[atr42flyer]

I disagree. I'd like the airplane to go down when I want it to, not necessarily automatically at TOD. There are even times when ATC keeps you high, flying past the hockey stick. You still stay at your cruise altitude. Would a Boeing start down automatically? That could get you into trouble if you aren't ahead of the game. On the flip side of the coin, you can of course argue the SAN-MSP NWA Airbus would have never overflown MSP if they automatically started down on the hockey stick like a Boeing does.

Edit: Boeing has LNAV and VNAV modes that show up on the FMA, an Airbus does not. It has NAV (like nav in any other FMS jet), and it has a managed descent function which you have to push the altitude knob to activate. You do set the lowest altitude for the arrival and once at or near the hockey stick, start down. It'll hit all points and speeds, and give you advisories if it thinks it won't meet a certain waypoint constraint (like 'more drag' which to be honest is done with a horrible calculation and quite a few times it mentions that even when you don't technically need it). Overall, I'm satisified with the descent functions of the A320.

I am going to address you first part prior to your edit. You must not really understand true VNAV. I would never want an airplane to start down on its own because it reached TOD. I would though if I were CLEARED to descend VIA. if you trucking along at FL340 and have been cleared to descend at pilots discretion or VIA XYZ arrival in an airbus and set in your lowest alt the bus will maintain your cruising alt. Now in a boeing or any other plane with a coupled auto pilot and a true VNAV you set in your bottom alt WHEN CLEARED!!!! and the airplane will start down at the TOD.

You are correct you would get in a lot of trouble if we had airplanes with out clearance starting down to a lower alt with out pilots input. Come on man!

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I disagree. I'd like the airplane to go down when I want it to, not necessarily automatically at TOD. There are even times when ATC keeps you high, flying past the hockey stick. You still stay at your cruise altitude. Would a Boeing start down automatically? That could get you into trouble if you aren't ahead of the game. On the flip side of the coin, you can of course argue the SAN-MSP NWA Airbus would have never overflown MSP if they automatically started down on the hockey stick like a Boeing does.

You don't understand how that works

 

[trip]

The "banana bar" is a Collins proprietary feature.

I think the correct terminology is "Pink Banana"

Use the DIR page as a backup to see what VS's your going to need.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

But training says all you need is the snowflake and g/s x 5! Yeah, that doesn't work out so beautifully on any ODP. And leveling off??? I guess that's why these are ODPs and not CDPs.