Question for Flex guys

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Weak answer.

And...he said "Goobal."

Weak answer, as in you have no rebuttal therefore poke fun at a misspelled word.

 

[slowtation capt]

It's not a whipsaw; Flexjet has the overall advantage in pay, benefits, and general QOL. What it is is KR's frontal assault on the FO union and Flexjet management is gladly helping him do it. There is no good reason for DAC to want active FO pilots coming over to Flexjet unless it is to get them to "see the light" and turn against the union and vote for single carrier. It's not even necessarily permanent, 24 months minimum and they get to keep their pay and FO seniority number. Flexjet pilots have never been allowed to change fleets unless company needs demanded it. Now all of a sudden we're opening the doors to another pilot group because "they want to fly Flexjet airplanes". Horse apples. And their argument that it still brings back furloughees because it creates openings at FO is junk. It would drive 2 training events as opposed to 1 which has always been the argument against Flex pilots moving. No, this is just the latest event in the 3 ring circus we are in with KR as the ringmaster.

So true

:beer:

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

5. A pilot who is hired by Flexjet will retain their Flight Options seniority number. They will also be given a placeholder position at the bottom of the current Flexjet seniority list. This seniority position will be used for purposes of upgrading at Flexjet. All seniority positions are subject to revision if an integrated seniority list is required at some point in the future.

Gee. Not much legally about what a “placeholder position” really is. Some hits at lacoe.edu & a notice at Airtran. Nothing at Black’s. What lawyer decided to use “placeholder position”? Yeah, yeah, I know it “will be used for purposes of upgrading and pay at Flexjet…” But why even call it a “placeholder position”? And in the very next sentence the lawyer calls it “This seniority position”. And it’s on Flex’s Seniority List. And later: “All Seniority positions…”

People: FO pilots are now on the FJ seniority list. And they’re going to be flying those shiny new jet’s & earning more than some of you. How’s that sit with you?

 

[asdf]

Ludicrous Speed,

Guess what you are saying the new aircraft at Flex are going to be in the "managed fleet" and therefore you interview for the position and will most likely go to Flight Options pilots and then they will be given a Flexjet junior seniority number? But that number really means nothing as they are outside the core fleet but on one of the managed aircraft - similar to the globals now. Hence they will be making more than the junior First Officers at Flexjet.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

5. A pilot who is hired by Flexjet will retain their Flight Options seniority number. They will also be given a placeholder position at the bottom of the current Flexjet seniority list. This seniority position will be used for purposes of upgrading at Flexjet. All seniority positions are subject to revision if an integrated seniority list is required at some point in the future.

Gee. Not much legally about what a ?placeholder position? really is. Some hits at lacoe.edu & a notice at Airtran. Nothing at Black?s. What lawyer decided to use ?placeholder position?? Yeah, yeah, I know it ?will be used for purposes of upgrading and pay at Flexjet?? But why even call it a ?placeholder position?? And in the very next sentence the lawyer calls it ?This seniority position?. And it?s on Flex?s Seniority List. And later: ?All Seniority positions??

People: FO pilots are now on the FJ seniority list. And they?re going to be flying those shiny new jet?s & earning more than some of you. How?s that sit with you?

So far there is one furloughed FO pilot on the FJ seniority list. He is a great guy, but not making any more than FJ crews and we all fly the same equipment.

 

[BlueNose]

Question: Will the FO guys going to the Global program have to pay 1108 a monthly agency fee to keep their FO seniority #? How about any taking this new offer to go to Flex? Or will they be considered on leave of absence and given a withdrawal?

 

[Praetorian]

No one is being stapled anywhere. All new hires start at the bottom. IF Flight Options ever hires off the street how will you feel about those guys being stapled to the bottom of your list?

No you're still not getting it, but you're right in one respect. It is like FX is hiring FO pilots off the street but:

Current FX First Officer wages:

year 1: $60,193
year 2: $61,752
year 3: $64,674
year 4: $69,154
year 5: $72,271

This is what some of the FO pilots stupid enough to betray their fellow pilots will be making, as at-will employees, when they slink into the right seats of your aircraft:

Former Flight Options BJ pilots:

year 1: $97,601
year 2: $101,017
year 3: $104,552
year 4: $108,212
Year 5: $111,999

For the former BJ pilots this continues until they've been at FX for seven years. Assuming they make Captain at that point (doubtful) they will reach parity with everyone else at FX. But wait it gets even better.

Former Flight Options Legacy pilots now flying as First Officers at FX will make:

year 1: $119,929
year 2: $124,127
year 3: $128,471
year 4: $128,471
year 5: $128,471

The Legacy pilots get the best deal out there :erm: If they are stupid enough to wuss off the FX, after year-3 they will be stuck at $128,471 until they've been at FX for 10 years. And all of this comes with the humiliation of at-will employment, at no extra charge.

So to answer your question if I were say, a 4-year Co-pilot at FX making $69,154 and they brought some guy in off the street behind me, to also be a Co-pilot, and paid him $119,929, I'd be f**g pissed.

Do you get it now? Can you see the truth through the fog of uncle's union busting BS?

Btw. From what I hear. So far, the guys who are stupid enough to be out there saying they will go for this "opportunity" are some of our finest a$$ clowns. There's Special Ed, Phenom Phil, a CA many refer to as "the washing machine". You guys are gonna love flying with them.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

No you're still not getting it, but you're right in one respect. It is like FX is hiring FO pilots off the street but:

Current FX First Officer wages:

year 1: $60,193
year 2: $61,752
year 3: $64,674
year 4: $69,154
year 5: $72,271

This is what some of the FO pilots stupid enough to betray their fellow pilots will be making, as at-will employees, when they slink into the right seats of your aircraft:

Former Flight Options BJ pilots:

year 1: $97,601
year 2: $101,017
year 3: $104,552
year 4: $108,212
Year 5: $111,999

For the former BJ pilots this continues until they've been at FX for seven years. Assuming they make Captain at that point (doubtful) they will reach parity with everyone else at FX. But wait it gets even better.

Former Flight Options Legacy pilots now flying as First Officers at FX will make:

year 1: $119,929
year 2: $124,127
year 3: $128,471
year 4: $128,471
year 5: $128,471

The Legacy pilots get the best deal out there :erm: If they are stupid enough to wuss off the FX, after year-3 they will be stuck at $128,471 until they've been at FX for 10 years. And all of this comes with the humiliation of at-will employment, at no extra charge.

So to answer your question if I were say, a 4-year Co-pilot at FX making $69,154 and they brought some guy in off the street behind me, to also be a Co-pilot, and paid him $119,929, I'd be f**g pissed.

Do you get it now? Can you see the truth through the fog of uncle's union busting BS?

Btw. From what I hear. So far, the guys who are stupid enough to be out there saying they will go for this "opportunity" are some of our finest a$$ clowns. There's Special Ed, Phenom Phil, a CA many refer to as "the washing machine". You guys are gonna love flying with them.

Why would you be pissed that someone below you is making more money.

Our employment agreement spells out how much we get paid. Nothing with that has changed.

Now if they were to cut our pay so he could get paid more I would be pissed. But they isn't what is happening.

We have a great program here at FJ for people that have repeated issues in training. It allows us to find the root cause of their deficiencies and fix them so thy can become better pilots. So far it has about a 100% success rate.

If these pilots you like to make fun of for being weak have issues here we will work it out with them.

 

[Praetorian]

Why would you be pissed that someone below you is making more money.

Our employment agreement spells out how much we get paid. Nothing with that has changed.

Now if they were to cut our pay so he could get paid more I would be pissed. But they isn't what is happening.

We have a great program here at FJ for people that have repeated issues in training. It allows us to find the root cause of their deficiencies and fix them so thy can become better pilots. So far it has about a 100% success rate.

If these pilots you like to make fun of for being weak have issues here we will work it out with them.

I think you misunderstood me. They aren't weak as pilots, just as human beings. They will soon be on everyone's "no-fly" list over there. I know they are on ours.

As to your other point. So basically what your saying is seniority means nothing to you? If this is the case, would it also be OK if uncle decides to place some of these pilots into some of your larger aircraft ahead of you? After all, he already has with the Globals - but let's not get off track, I know you still haven't accepted that reality. So how about if he gives them a better schedule then you? Claims operational need and all that. What if maybe he overlooks the strict letter of your basing system an makes some accommodation to bring them on-board?

I mean where does it end for you? Is any conceivable injustice OK with you as long as your pay is not cut? Doesn't it bother you even a little bit that, if you guys go along with this, you will be setting presidents that will undermine many of the long held traditions within our profession?

If uncle orders you to go to work in a clown suit, would you do it as long as they didn't cut your pay?

 

[luckydog]

Is there no one still on the First Office pay scale at Options? If not, I'd guess that anyone wanting to move over is doing it for non-financial reasons.... I know,... what are they thinking!?

 

[luckydog]

I think you misunderstood me. They aren't weak as pilots, just as human beings. They will soon be on everyone's "no-fly" list over there. I know they are on ours.

As to your other point. So basically what your saying is seniority means nothing to you? If this is the case, would it also be OK if uncle decides to place some of these pilots into some of your larger aircraft ahead of you? After all, he already has with the Globals - but let's not get off track, I know you still haven't accepted that reality. So how about if he gives them a better schedule then you? Claims operational need and all that. What if maybe he overlooks the strict letter of your basing system an makes some accommodation to bring them on-board?

I mean where does it end for you? Is any conceivable injustice OK with you as long as your pay is not cut? Doesn't it bother you even a little bit that, if you guys go along with this, you will be setting presidents that will undermine many of the long held traditions within our profession?

If uncle orders you to go to work in a clown suit, would you do it as long as they didn't cut your pay?

I'm sure The Architect will point out: ...you said "presidents"....

You really need to take it down a notch. IF the current agreement isn't honored, there will be consequences. How dire they are depends on what is done.
If any transferred crews wind up in the Challenger as first officers, yes, that will suck for the current LR45 guys that want to move over. But, new hire FOs are put in the Challenger fleet all the time, it doesn't set a precedent.

You have a union there, if the pilots don't like what's happening with this program, put a stop to it.

And as a final point, until a petition is filed for single carrier, none of this is your concern. Or, is the IBT going to let FJ pilots set policy during your upcoming contract negotiations?

 

[AeroBoy]

Anyone know the N-number of the Global on property at Flex?

 

[Praetorian]

I'm sure The Architect will point out: ...you said "presidents"....

You really need to take it down a notch. IF the current agreement isn't honored, there will be consequences. How dire they are depends on what is done.
If any transferred crews wind up in the Challenger as first officers, yes, that will suck for the current LR45 guys that want to move over. But, new hire FOs are put in the Challenger fleet all the time, it doesn't set a precedent.

You have a union there, if the pilots don't like what's happening with this program, put a stop to it.

And as a final point, until a petition is filed for single carrier, none of this is your concern. Or, is the IBT going to let FJ pilots set policy during your upcoming contract negotiations?

I didn't say anything about your agreement. Unlike our CBA, it doesn't address this situation. If the shoe was on the other foot we'd be protected.

And, it is my concern. Just like many have pointed out in another thread about TMC, any time a group of pilots sits on their hands and allows their management to undermine our profession, it brings us all down.

Just as the FX pilots ultimately benefited from the NJ contracts of 05' and 07', we will all suffer from this.

Your concern should be that you guys will be remembered, far and wide, as the the pilot group that let it happen. And in aviation people have long memories.

For god's sake, grow a spine. I'm astonished at the level of fear indifference and credulity your pilot group displays.

In the end this will come back around to bite you. And when that happens, it will be to late.

 

[el raton]

The global program plays exactly 0% into Flexjet's seniority. It's stand alone dedicated aircraft piggybacking jet solutions certificate. If it weren't for the union at FO I'm sure the global program would have been under the Option's banner.
Please, using the globals in this argument is a weak argument and only proves that those who are pro-teamster are only twisting reality in an attempt to spread fear.

As far as those transferring to flex, this does worry me. I believe it's an attempt to diminish the numbers at FO (union) and increase the numbers at Flex (non-union). This increases the chances of decertification at FO making it easier to integrate both pilot groups. Doing this would dissolve some redundancies in operations and increase the profits for DAC.

That said it explains why I do not like the current agreement for FO pilots to transfer to flex. I think they should be required to give up their seniority number at FO along with requiring an interview before transferring. Then if we integrate by percentage of seniority this would keep them at their current seniority level as a new hire and you wouldn't see a junior first officer at flex end up becoming a mid-senior captain.

In short, I'm rooting for FO's union. Keep your union and let's stay separate.

 

[slowtation capt]

Why would you be pissed that someone below you is making more money.

Ohhhh, I don't know why, maybe because you have put x# of years into a company, then someone comes in, slings gear, gets coffee, papers, ice, and catering, sits around while the captain does the vast majority of the work and responsibility, and is getting paid almost twice as much.

Now if they were to cut our pay so he could get paid more I would be pissed.

So they can bring Options guys over, pay them whatever they want, put them where they want. Let's say some of the guys cut a deal with KR and go directly to the CL350.
Let's also say that they cut a deal for the pay, 1 that is even better than the scale that they put out. KR can do what he wants, there were multiple deals on salaries done in the old days.

So now you have an Options guy riding in the right seat of a brand new CL350 making $180K a yr.

And that doesn't bother you, all because they didn't cut your pay! Bravo!