Question for ATC

[ATCER]

Boy... this has become one HOT Thread... LOL ...

I have been following it and wasn't sure how much I should post on a public board (lots of eyes watching)... BUT... here goes.

One of the sectors I work is the sector that ATCloser feeds JFK departures to over SHIPP and WAVEY... and we feed traffic to JFK via CAMRN. Now, offshore we have the 12nm rule (via our SOP) where it is legal for A/C to break 250 below 10K... and it is regualry done... both inbound and outbound. Do A/C break this rule inside the 12nm ... Yea, it happens... When we clear the JFK's in direct we often clear em down to 9000' from about 50 out (or whatever JFK requests, say down to 4000') and tell them speed your discretion... I know, you're all probably rolling your eyes because it sounds phrased to absolve us in case you exceed 250 more less then 12nm ... and you know what ... it sort of is... Will you get turned in for this... NO, not by us. If a congressmen or someone similar was living under this particular flight path then maybe... if there is a complaint and the Feds look into it we'll see an SOP change or a word from the region to knock it off, similar things have happend for other procedures we were doing.

Now... Chperplt handled it very well... (hats off to ya man) he covered his own A$$ by stating "we're at 250 knots" so... he is on the tapes stating his airspeed so technically the controller cleared him above 250 (at least the way I view it).

ATCLoser says it best... if I had to decide between running 2 together or breaking the speed limit... I'm seperating the planes any way I can... and that my be what happend in Chperplt's case. I'm just theorizing here...

Each facility has waivers to do different things etc, I know at mine we have waivers for things such as RVSM in oceanic tranisition airspace, on the AR and VS routes also... could other places have waivers for 250 below 10K in certain situations, maybe... nothing would surprise me in the FAA. The only place I know of that can exceed 250 below 10K is IAH... (are they still doing that ???)

This thread was started by Stiflers Mom (a MILF) and has a comment by a FLIBmeister... FLIB ... LOL.

This thread is cool

 

[English]

Same stuff happens in Hawaii all the time...

 

[regionalcap]

They are no longer doing it in Houston.

 

[de727ups]

FAA legal opinion

http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages/3925.html

This is a link from Doc's FAR page. If ATC in the USA ever asks me to exceed 250K below 10, I'll ask them if they are declaring an emergency or if they would like me too....

 

[SCT]

ATCER,

Great information you are providing for flight crews! It's good to hear the perspective from the other side of the mic.

Question: What is an ATC's guidlines on violating a crew for a FAR deviation? Is it totally the controllers discretion for altitude deviations? Wrong routing or headings? How often does it happen per week in your facility?

This is great info for both flight crews and ATC.

SCT

 

[vschip]

concorde question

Question for you NY area ATC-ers, what speed did the Concorde climb out at, and did they have any special arrival considerations due to their approach speed? And thanks for all the interesting info...

 

[ATCER]

http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages/3925.html

This is a link from Doc's FAR page. If ATC in the USA ever asks me to exceed 250K below 10, I'll ask them if they are declaring an emergency or if they would like me too....

Or say unable... What happenend to Chperplt is the exception, not the norm, of how ops are done. Like I said earlier... I think that was a circumstance where the controller had a situation brewing and wanted to get out of trouble ASAP. Just a theory... but we've all been there

Here is your typical situation... I take a handoff from N90, A/C heading for WAVEY... pilot checks on, NY ... XXX123 climbing through 6.5 for 13K ... XXX123 NY roger, climb maintian FL230... XXX123... climbing for FL230... can we pick up the speed NY ? XXX123... roger, speed your discretion. I never solicit a higher speed ... Offshore (12nm) that is legal... I would say that 6 out of 10 departures ask for it. Now the reverse... our LOA states that we feed JFK arrivlas over CAMRN @ 9000' and 250 knots. The standard clearence would be this ~> XXX123, cross 10 SE CAMRN @ 9000' 250 knots. (the 10SE is to miss an adjoining sector who owns 10K and above @ CAMRN and we say 250 to make sure they don't slow further) At various times the room calls and will say something like clear the inbounds direct, down to 4000' with speeds... meaning direct JFK, similar speeds, descending. Now, XXX123 checks on out of 16K for 12K instead of clearing him CAMRN I give cleared direct JFK, descend maintain 4000', altimeter 29.92, speed your discretion... 99 of 100 will cross abeam CAMRN @ 300-310 knots... I have also had guys pin the speed at 250 as soon as he hit 10K. It's your choice... I never tell pilots how to fly a plane... because we can let em' run out over the ocean I offer the crew the choice... you are never punished for your choice.

 

[ATCER]

ATCER,

Great information you are providing for flight crews! It's good to hear the perspective from the other side of the mic.

Question: What is an ATC's guidlines on violating a crew for a FAR deviation? Is it totally the controllers discretion for altitude deviations? Wrong routing or headings? How often does it happen per week in your facility?

This is great info for both flight crews and ATC.

SCT

Per week... ??? I dunno... very rare. I think my area only had one so far this year. With the daily bag of $hit we deal with, skeleton crew staffing, inept management, and the list continues, some poor Capt. who turns to the wrong heading is low on the list... he won't get turned in unless it leads to an operational error. Situations I have seen have been A/C that were deviating for weather and turned to an unaproved heading and lost seperation with another A/C, programmed the FMS wrong and made a turn into an active military warning area. That sort of stuff, out of our control... if something happens but nothing operational occurs you might get the phone # for the wood shed but that's just to chat... it ends there. Listen, we want the stupidvisors involved even less then you...

As for discretion it is up to us to report it... then it goes to QA (Quality Assurance) and the region for review. It could very well come back and bite us, they look at time on position, # of breaks, staffing, all kinds of factors. Then the unions get involved (ALPA, NATCA)... not worth it unless it is serious.

I have only violated one person... I will share that story. Leading up to Xmas the Oceanic Ops get VERY BUSY (all non-radar). Last year was out of hand, on the oceanic routes we were out of altitudes (RVSM i might add) A/C were stacked from FL260 up to FL470... we were humping... each sector had 40-45 A/C. TNCM (St. Marten) was out of room on the airport... San Juan Cerap was holding for TNCM, and we were faced with holding over the ocean (not something pilots seem to like). There was a ground delay of 3+ hours for flights departing the Carribean due to massive volume. Some Citaiton pilot facing a EDCT of 3+ hours decided to depart VFR and pick up his clearence in the air. The tower advised him NY Oceanic WILL NOT ISSUE IFR'S IN THE AIR !!! and neither would SJU. He flies @ 17,500 VFR from St Marten to my boundry (about 23N)... all the while SJU is advising him to turn around. He WAS legal VFR @ 17,500 while in SJU's airspace BUT in that area of NY Ocean he entered Class A is from 2500 MSL and up. He enters my airspace (ilegally) and calls ArInc via HF with a request for an immediate IFR to TEB and a climb to FL430 for fuel. In the process he nearly hits a Navy P3 on OPS (they were none too happy). I phone patched to him and cleared to TXKF (Bermuda) @ FL270 and advised I was turing him in (SJU already had)... I admit I was really annoyed but later when I sat and thought about it I thought that this pilot probably was threatned by some billionaire who "had" to get back home ASAP and probably told the guy either depart any way you can or I'll find someone that will.

 

[jobear]

Great thread gang!

 

[ATCER]

Question for you NY area ATC-ers, what speed did the Concorde climb out at, and did they have any special arrival considerations due to their approach speed? And thanks for all the interesting info...

The Concorde used to go out over SHIPP... there were ALWAYS noise complaints and yes... they would exceed 250 below 10K . It had it's own NAT (North Atlantic Track) that was used by BAW and AFR Concordes only. They would fly in a block atltitude enroute, generally FL450BFL600. Coming to the US they would generally transition to Radar way up North then first hit ZNY radar at JOBOC or SLATN or something. They were handled a bit different, they kept the speed up and would often get a heading or direct JFK... we would usually ask what the room wanted... they would range out and say ok... I see him, give a 300 heading and ship him to me (something to that effect). Their flight plan took them a good deal offshore for noise in the climb out.