Qantas grounds entire fleet!

[Flopgut]

There can be no 'struck-work' when there is no labor group that isn't on strike.

END OF STORY!

First off: Would you be willing to fly anything that looked like it infringed on this mess?! That's the fundamental question.

The guy has locked out the entire airline. Lockout is to Management as Strike is to Union. It's going to end up a strike.

They start interviewing and hiring intended replacements, you think that's going to be ok?

End of story? Hardly!

 

[General Lee]

Looks like the Government may get involved with a Fair Works tribunal to try to resolve it, and it may be flying again by Monday. Sounds like Clinton and Bush forcing the hand of labor, but they also may keep labor around and not let the airline fail. Regardless, it will help Virgin Australia, and Delta too.

And, I really don't think SWA will buy them, since they can't make a profit in the most profitable quarter of the year. Sure seems like those guys are having a terrible year, with the culture problems too.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You can't throw the phrase "struck work" around when talking about this.

Firstly it's only the QF long haul pilots who are trying to negotiate a new CBA, not the domestic pilots. They are on a completely different contract. Any extra flights that Virgin is doing is only domestic and only to clear the backlog of pax that have been stranded.

Secondly, the QF long haul pilots are not on strike.

Thirdly, the QF pilots are represented by AIPA. The Virgin pilots are represented by both the AFAP and VIPA. And even then union membership is not compulsory in Australia.

Are you talking about Qantas vs Jetstar? Qantas has 737s that fly domestic flights, and bigger planes that go INTL. Qantas also owns Jetstar, which is a LCC (with A320/321s and A330s), and they are unaffected. Yes, Qantas does have domestic flying, with 737-400s, 737-800s, and 767/A330s.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

You can't throw the phrase "struck work" around when talking about this.

Firstly it's only the QF long haul pilots who are trying to negotiate a new CBA, not the domestic pilots. They are on a completely different contract. Any extra flights that Virgin is doing is only domestic and only to clear the backlog of pax that have been stranded.

Secondly, the QF long haul pilots are not on strike.

Thirdly, the QF pilots are represented by AIPA. The Virgin pilots are represented by both the AFAP and VIPA. And even then union membership is not compulsory in Australia.

An impasse is an impasse. The exact term is just semantics.

Something like this happens, I don't think its a good idea to immediately start rationalizing that its ok without much consternation.

*edit* What's happened here, is mgt has gone on strike...

 

[General Lee]

An impasse is an impasse. The exact term is just semantics.

Something like this happens, I don't think its a good idea to immediately start rationalizing that its ok without much consternation.

*edit* What's happened here, is mgt has gone on strike...

Very correct. But, they will probably still get their "retention bonuses." It's called Wealthfare.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Kenny]

Are you talking about Qantas vs Jetstar? Qantas has 737s that fly domestic flights, and bigger planes that go INTL. Qantas also owns Jetstar, which is a LCC (with A320/321s and A330s), and they are unaffected. Yes, Qantas does have domestic flying, with 737-400s, 737-800s, and 767/A330s.


Bye Bye---General Lee

.


GL,

With the greatest of respect, I don't think you're aware of how the QF group and their pilots fit together.

QF didn't do any domestic flying until after the pilots' strike of '89, they only flew internationally. When QF bought Australian Airlines, they acquired a domestic network. Hence, they essentially have 2 pilot groups, international and domestic pilots and they are treated as separate groups on very different CBA's. It is the QF international pilots that are trying to negotiate a new CBA and whose work action to this point has simply consisted of wearing red ties and making PA's about keeping QF Australian. The domestics pilots are not taking part in any work action, even though they are also represented by AIPA and are Qantas pilots.

What this is about is "Job security". At its very simplest, imagine that when UAL formed TED, they used UAL planes but different pilots. Not UAL pilots but pilots on a different seniority list, paid less than the UAL guys to fly the same aircraft and whose work rules were far lower. Then imagine that TED grew and started taking over UAL domestic and international routes. This is what has been happening with QF and Jetstar. Jetstar has effectively been eating QF, from the inside out, for the past few years.

Let's just hope there isn't another company overseas that's willing to to bring their aircraft and pilots en-masse and fly the Qantas routes, like America West did in '89.

 

[dicko]

.


GL,

With the greatest of respect, I don't think you're aware of how the QF group and their pilots fit together.

QF didn't do any domestic flying until after the pilots' strike of '89, they only flew internationally. When QF bought Australian Airlines, they acquired a domestic network. Hence, they essentially have 2 pilot groups, international and domestic pilots and they are treated as separate groups on very different CBA's. It is the QF international pilots that are trying to negotiate a new CBA and whose work action to this point has simply consisted of wearing red ties and making PA's about keeping QF Australian. The domestics pilots are not taking part in any work action, even though they are also represented by AIPA and are Qantas pilots.

What this is about is "Job security". At its very simplest, imagine that when UAL formed TED, they used UAL planes but different pilots. Not UAL pilots but pilots on a different seniority list, paid less than the UAL guys to fly the same aircraft and whose work rules were far lower. Then imagine that TED grew and started taking over UAL domestic and international routes. This is what has been happening with QF and Jetstar. Jetstar has effectively been eating QF, from the inside out, for the past few years.

Let's just hope there isn't another company overseas that's willing to to bring their aircraft and pilots en-masse and fly the Qantas routes, like America West did in '89.

A good summation.

One of the cornerstones of the Qantas CEOs plan is to move the labor out of Australia. He can then subvert labor laws by employing pilots to operate Qantas aircraft from a country with different, little, or no labor law and without a contract or a union. Or, employ them under a separate contract in another country. All under the Qantas company umbrella.

You used the example of 'Ted' and United to illustrate situation. In this case it would be 'Ted' based in Mexico and employing a mix of Americans and foreign nationals all under a different contract. Whilst being owned by United.

'The Irish midget' needs to be deported.

 

[Freebrd]

I would think ordinarily management types are beholden to *stockholders* who won't look kindly on intentionally running a company into the ground in order to spite the workers.

happens with just about every airline contract every time, standard operating procedure by management, stockholders buy into management's reasoning, you know, bust those unions!

 

[wmuflyguy]

Maybe I'm slow but I don't get it. Isn't this the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face? Some sort of reverse strike? I would think ordinarily management types are beholden to *stockholders* who won't look kindly on intentionally running a company into the ground in order to spite the workers.

He is locking them out and most likely betting that the government will intervene order the company to open and the TWU to stop job actions. Thus killing the job action by the TWU and keeping the current contracts in place.

 

[J.Otto]

He is locking them out and most likely betting that the government will intervene order the company to open and the TWU to stop job actions. Thus killing the job action by the TWU and keeping the current contracts in place.

This is what most likely will happen.

 

[General Lee]

.


GL,

With the greatest of respect, I don't think you're aware of how the QF group and their pilots fit together.

QF didn't do any domestic flying until after the pilots' strike of '89, they only flew internationally. When QF bought Australian Airlines, they acquired a domestic network. Hence, they essentially have 2 pilot groups, international and domestic pilots and they are treated as separate groups on very different CBA's. It is the QF international pilots that are trying to negotiate a new CBA and whose work action to this point has simply consisted of wearing red ties and making PA's about keeping QF Australian. The domestics pilots are not taking part in any work action, even though they are also represented by AIPA and are Qantas pilots.

What this is about is "Job security". At its very simplest, imagine that when UAL formed TED, they used UAL planes but different pilots. Not UAL pilots but pilots on a different seniority list, paid less than the UAL guys to fly the same aircraft and whose work rules were far lower. Then imagine that TED grew and started taking over UAL domestic and international routes. This is what has been happening with QF and Jetstar. Jetstar has effectively been eating QF, from the inside out, for the past few years.

Let's just hope there isn't another company overseas that's willing to to bring their aircraft and pilots en-masse and fly the Qantas routes, like America West did in '89.

Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like Jetstar is about to get a lot bigger.

BTW, Kenny, are you on the 737, E190, or A330? And, I have been to Australia, and it honestly is one of the most beautiful countries I have ever been to, with extremely nice people. I can hold FO on our 777, but not the SYD flights yet unfortunately.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Kenny]

Jetstar getting bigger has always been the end game, at least in my personal opinion. This move by the management of QF was planned weeks, if not months ago. They had spoken to other CEO's in the Star Alliance and booked extra hotel rooms before the announcement, yesterday.

They have no interest in keeping QF as it is now and I think they're prepared to bankrupt it and then for the assets to be bought by Jetstar, only to be re-launched as the "New" Qantas.

Then they'll have their B-Scale pilots.

I'm on the 73.

 

[Pull To Guns]

This kinda sums it up.

http://youtu.be/68f_JdPmvlM

EY and EK are also licking their chops over this windfall.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Shameful what is happening to such an Iconic brand

 

[ackattacker]

This guy sounds like the Frank Lorenzo of the southern hemisphere.

He's betting either that the government orders a total, permanent end to all union actions (a big union-busting win for him) OR he simply bankrupts the company, fires everybody, moves everything off-shore, writes himself a big fat check and fires up a cuban cigar.

Win-win.

 

[Full of LUV]

A good summation.

One of the cornerstones of the Qantas CEOs plan is to move the labor out of Australia. He can then subvert labor laws by employing pilots to operate Qantas aircraft from a country with different, little, or no labor law and without a contract or a union. Or, employ them under a separate contract in another country. All under the Qantas company umbrella.

You used the example of 'Ted' and United to illustrate situation. In this case it would be 'Ted' based in Mexico and employing a mix of Americans and foreign nationals all under a different contract. Whilst being owned by United.

'The Irish midget' needs to be deported.

You mean like the United and Air Lingus joint venture that uses other pilots to fly their metal for less cost?

 

[Jetjockey]

Let me play devil's advocate for a minute.

Can't this be argued free-market capitalism? Isn't this what "conservatives" argue up and down? An unregulated, free market? It's good for the business, who care what it does to employees.

Sadly, this is becoming the global model.

 

[Flopgut]

Let me play devil's advocate for a minute.

Can't this be argued free-market capitalism? Isn't this what "conservatives" argue up and down? An unregulated, free market? It's good for the business, who care what it does to employees.

Sadly, this is becoming the global model.

I'm not afraid of a global free market, and no pilot should be. But it's not a free market.

 

[Poahi]

Can someone clear up what history brought about this situation?

It looks like QF commanded a preemptive shutdown to avoid a death by a thousand pokes.

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

Qantas ordered to resume flights after tribunal ruling

An independent tribunal in Australia has ordered a permanent end to the industrial dispute that has grounded all Qantas flights.
Fair Work Australia issued its ruling after hearing evidence from the airline, unions and government at an emergency session in Melbourne.
Qantas had wanted the ruling and said it could resume flights within hours, but it has given no details as yet.
Nearly 70,000 people have been affected by flight cancellations in 22 nations.
Correspondents say the ruling is likely to be seen as a victory for Qantas, which has been seeking to end long-running disputes with three unions, and for the government, which wanted the damaging stand-off resolved quickly.
The row came to a head in August after the airline announced plans for restructuring and moving some operations to Asia.
Permanent end
The Fair Work Australia ruling said: "We have decided to terminate protected industrial action in relation to each of the proposed enterprise agreements immediately."
Qantas dispute

• August 2011: Qantas announces restructuring and outsourcing plan to combat annual losses in international operation of about A$200m
• Unions begin series of strikes, pressing for more job security
• Qantas says 447 flights cancelled and 68,000 passengers affected, at cost of A$68m
• 29 October: Qantas grounds entire domestic and international fleet - 108 planes at 22 airports
• The ruling requires the unions to return to the negotiating table and come to an agreement within 21 days or face binding arbitration.

Fair Work Australia said its ruling had taken into account its concern for the vulnerability of the tourism industry.
Australia's government welcomed the decision, with Assistant Treasurer Bill Shorten saying: "We are pleased that after 24 hours of turmoil, commonsense has been restored."
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce had warned it would only resume operations if the tribunal ordered a permanent end, rather than merely a suspension, of industrial action.
The unions had wanted a suspension for up to 120 days to allow talks.
Secretary of the ACTU union Jeff Lawrence said the ruling had made it clear that union action was not causing harm to the economy and that it was Qantas's actions that had brought the tribunal's intervention.
He said the ruling showed Qantas's decision to lockout its workers and ground aircraft was a disproportionate response to the unions' negotiating position.
The airline announced its decision to ground all flights on Saturday, saying it was a necessary reaction to industrial action that was costing A$15m ($16m) a week.
Australia's Prime Minister Julia Gillard had earlier said the dispute between the airline and unions needed to be halted.
A government lawyer said the shutdown was costing the Australian economy "tens of millions" of dollars every hour.
Job losses
A Qantas statement on Saturday said all employees involved in industrial action would be locked out from Monday evening and flights grounded from 0600 GMT on Saturday.
The announcement came after months of wrangling between the airline's management and unions.
Relations started deteriorating in August after the airline announced plans for restructuring and moving some operations to Asia.
Qantas has a 65% share of the domestic Australian market, but has been making heavy losses on its international flights.
The restructuring is expected to mean the loss of 1,000 jobs from its 35,000-strong workforce.