Pt.135 On-Demand,Pax or Freight,Mgmt adherence to FAR'S

[G-force]

If anyone flying 135 charter/pax-freight was following the FAR's and in return got the proverbial AX for doing so,we need to hear from you.

If you were flying Pt.135 On-Demand charter, pax or freight,and a mgmt person,Dir of Ops/Chief Pilot gave you a DIRECT ORDER to perform or not perform and action that would be considered a violation by a FSDO Inspector,then,we need to hear from you.

Please only serious replies!!!!!

Have had first hand experience with this issue and believe that all the problem lies with mgmt and local FSDO's due to their relationships that are not on the PROFESSIONAL LEVEL.If we as pilots want better employers in the 135/charter segment of aviation,then we MUST have mgr's with better training,better ethics and values.

 

[jergar999]

If anyone flying 135 charter/pax-freight was following the FAR's and in return got the proverbial AX for doing so,we need to hear from you.

If you were flying Pt.135 On-Demand charter, pax or freight,and a mgmt person,Dir of Ops/Chief Pilot gave you a DIRECT ORDER to perform or not perform and action that would be considered a violation by a FSDO Inspector,then,we need to hear from you.

Please only serious replies!!!!!

Have had first hand experience with this issue and believe that all the problem lies with mgmt and local FSDO's due to their relationships that are not on the PROFESSIONAL LEVEL.If we as pilots want better employers in the 135/charter segment of aviation,then we MUST have mgr's with better training,better ethics and values.

I have first hand experience with this exact situation. I was doing my preflight inspection on a Metro and going through the logbook noticed it was due for a service check. The company AAIP called for service checks and phase inspections every fifty hours, alternating between the two. I told UPS not to load the aircraft and called the CP. He told me to head home for now, and said he would take care of it. I got a call not fifteen minutes later to let me know the aircraft was ready and loaded, and that I needed to be there ASAP. The CP had called a mechanic and told him to pencil whip a service check as fast as possible, then called UPS and told them to start loading without me.

I talked with my feet, and never looked back. A friend of mine called me two months later to tell me they had been shut down.

I guess technically I didn't get the axe, but had I stayed and forced the issue I'm sure I would have.

 

[AerroMatt]

...Uhhh. Oops! Sorry! You said only serious replies.

I guess I'll do as Diesel has suggested. I'll go back on the Veranda, since you're already on the cross.

 

[G-force]

Real World-charter

I have first hand experience with this exact situation. I was doing my preflight inspection on a Metro and going through the logbook noticed it was due for a service check. The company AAIP called for service checks and phase inspections every fifty hours, alternating between the two. I told UPS not to load the aircraft and called the CP. He told me to head home for now, and said he would take care of it. I got a call not fifteen minutes later to let me know the aircraft was ready and loaded, and that I needed to be there ASAP. The CP had called a mechanic and told him to pencil whip a service check as fast as possible, then called UPS and told them to start loading without me.

I talked with my feet, and never looked back. A friend of mine called me two months later to tell me they had been shut down.

I guess technically I didn't get the axe, but had I stayed and forced the issue I'm sure I would have.

Did you consider letting them terminate you?? Atleast you could possibly draw un-employment! What about the FAA whistle-blowers HOTline??

Have given much thought about the solution to this problem confronting this segment of aviation,it may require a change in FAR's,Pt 119 for mgmt persons to pass some required test on ethics & values,however,getting changes to FAR's is not easy!!
If you have any suggestions on how to resolve the problem,there are a lot of us that would like to hear about it,so feel free!!

 

[ClassG]

Actually, I believe the problem lies with PILOTS who are often willing to help the company to complete the mission, mistakenly believing they will be appreciated (as though there were some kind of reward to be gained) by their company. Wanting to be the hero often out-weighs the risks involved.

Also, the fact that MOST flight instructors have NO experience in airline and charter ops plays a huge role here. They are, therefore, often not equipped to properly "educate" a commercial pilot candidate for the Real World.

I would agree that management carries the bulk of the responsibility here (since somebody higher up than the pilot generally knows when something is getting ready to happen that COULD lead to a violation, and then doesn't share it with the crew).

But if the crew learns of a potential violation, they should not accept the trip. Maybe crews should be required to have additional training in professionalism, ethics, and JUDGEMENT before being allowed to become a professional pilot.

Today, there is very little training on what to look out for and what NOT to do (especially in the Part 135 environment) offered to the commercial pilot candidate. This may be on purpose. Knowledge is power. Too much knowledge and a culture of caution would mean lost trips, lost revenue. Not good for business.

Blame everybody - in fairness.

ClassG

 

[G-force]

Agree,mostly

Actually, I believe the problem lies with PILOTS who are often willing to help the company to complete the mission, mistakenly believing they will be appreciated (as though there were some kind of reward to be gained) by their company. Wanting to be the hero often out-weighs the risks involved.

Also, the fact that MOST flight instructors have NO experience in airline and charter ops plays a huge role here. They are, therefore, often not equipped to properly "educate" a commercial pilot candidate for the Real World.

I operators are.

But if the crew learns of a potential violation, they should not accept the trip. Maybe crews should be required to have additional training in professionalism, ethics, and JUDGEMENT before being allowed to become a professional pilot.

Today, there is very little training on what to look out for and what NOT to do (especially in the Part 135 environment) offered to the commercial pilot candidate. This may be on purpose. Knowledge is power. Too much knowledge and a culture of caution would mean lost trips, lost revenue. Not good for business.

Blame everybody - in fairness.

ClassG

Agree with you mostly,although mgmt must take 95% of the blame,since they hold all the cards.
At majors,regionals and some fractionals there is a UNION on the property which PROTECTS pilots from UN-ETHICAL mgmt.At charter operators,there is NO UNION,so pilots are not protected at all.
Today there is more opportunity than ever before,The TSA is literally driving thousands of pax away from scheduled carriers and into the charter/corporate/fractional segment of aviation.

A well run charter operator will be able to get new clients and keep old ones,a bad operator will lose clients and remain stagnant or go out business altogether
To IDENTIFY who the GOOD operator are seems to be little difficult for a lot of pilots.

 

[FL420]

Not 135 but 121. Otto refused to fly a B757 with unresolved maintenance issues and was able to prove he was fired in retaliation.

World Air Holdings Inc. Subsidiary Settles California Pilot Lawsuit

May 15, 2006 World Air Holdings Inc. announced that North American Airlines, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Company, has reported a full and complete settlement totaling $2.3 million to resolve a California lawsuit filed by former pilot Randall Otto. Otto had previously won a jury verdict for actual and punitive damages of $12.6 million in December 2005, which was reduced after post-trial motions to $3.1 million in a ruling by the Alameda County judge in March 2006. Otto originally filed his lawsuit in 2003, alleging wrongful termination

 

[G-force]

After the Verdict

Not 135 but 121. Otto refused to fly a B757 with unresolved maintenance issues and was able to prove he was fired in retaliation.

World Air Holdings Inc. Subsidiary Settles California Pilot Lawsuit

May 15, 2006 World Air Holdings Inc. announced that North American Airlines, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Company, has reported a full and complete settlement totaling $2.3 million to resolve a California lawsuit filed by former pilot Randall Otto. Otto had previously won a jury verdict for actual and punitive damages of $12.6 million in December 2005, which was reduced after post-trial motions to $3.1 million in a ruling by the Alameda County judge in March 2006. Otto originally filed his lawsuit in 2003, alleging wrongful termination

Did this pilot ever collect even one dollar after the lawyers got through???
Also,did this pilot,Randall Otto ever get another job in aviation? Does he even want to?????

 

[FL420]

Did this pilot ever collect even one dollar after the lawyers got through???
Also,did this pilot,Randall Otto ever get another job in aviation? Does he even want to?????

Randy Otto was hired as a B757 Captain by TransMeridian Airlines post North American. I don't know what he is doing now after TMA went tits up.

A fairly typical retainer for an attorney is 1/3 of the award, which in this case was settled at $2.3 million. He had some real high-powered expert witnesses that had to be paid but their fees could have been part of the final settlement.

 

[Say Again Over]

Part 135 and FAR compliance can't be used in the same sentence, I have worked for at least ten 135 operators and not one complied completely with the FARs, as a matter of fact my very last 135 employer has been brought up on a Federal rap (and the DM) for falsifying maintenance records at our Air Ambulance, along with bank fraud. The biggest operator (135) I worked for was part of the Mesa Group of Farmington, NM., some of the most flagrant law breakers I've ever worked for, they're all the same in my eyes.

 

[jergar999]

I don't think it's everyone. The current 135 company I work for will drop the hammer if you overfly an inspection or push into weather and not the other way around. I've never been pressured to do anything I'm not comfortable with, and when maintenance is due or if something breaks the airplane is out of service, plain and simple. There are decent companies out there, but maybe they are the exception and not the rule.

Regardless, it's my ticket on the line. If something isn't legal or safe it's not worth it. It's always easier to find a good job with a clean record.

 

[Corona]

I don't think it's everyone. The current 135 company I work for will drop the hammer if you overfly an inspection or push into weather and not the other way around.

That's very noble of them.

Why do they release airplanes that are too close to due times to complete the mission? Ah, of course; so they can bust ass on some poor pilot who just happened to miss the inspection time there.

Why do they release pilots to fly into questionable wx in the first place? Mod't to heavy ice? Closed airports/runways? Severe TRW? Ahh, check previous analysis...

And why would they "drop the hammer" on you? 'Cause it helps them avoid the inevitable fine from the FAA.

135 on-demand is the bottom-feeder of this industry. I've flown for them & have had friends who did as well. Someone always claims to have found the "non-bottom" feeder but it never turns out to be true.

Fly safe,
C

 

[tarp]

It's a noble cause....

...but I'm not naming names in this small world we call aviation as much as I would like to warn folks of certain companies.

I will say this. FSDO or the FAA is worthless as to "real" supervision. As long as their forms and paperwork say the right thing, the maintenance and training and operations can be a joke.

Money and making money (or greed) is the prime driver in all of this. Aviation is not immune from the rest of the world. The owners of the operations are not some kind of charitable organization - they are in business to make money so that they can buy things and live a good life. When you wear the management hat, there will be a point where you have to make a choice between your pocket and the pocket (or safety or welfare) of your employees. The management pocket will always win the moola UNLESS a customer or the FAA mandates or the engines simply die of exhaustion.

I have also determined that the best fleet will be a fleet that is 100% leaseback. Then management can then shift all blame and expense onto the owner. You want it to fly more, get a new interior. Sorry it's TBO time we need the engines done. Sorry, we are coming up on a 200hr inspection, it's going off-line.

Now if the company owns the plane all these things will be ignored because it costs money from the owner's pocket. Insurance, maintenance, cleaning, fixing interiors.....every last item will be left as late as possible to keep cash flowing until the last possible minute.

I flew a mixed fleet. The two leaseback planes were immaculate. Service done on time, logbooks proudly in view, cleaning service showed up every 30 days to detail, every little write-up fixed ASAP. Now the company planes were a disaster. Logbooks hidden from view. Torn upholstery that wouldn't be fixed until a chair disintegrated. The cheapest overhauls that could be found in the US - when you get engine overhauls for half the price of every other "quality" overhaul company - what does that say? By the way, what happens when the engines are overhauled by the cheapest guy on earth? Oh yes, they leak oil like a sieve. They get nice surges and pops. The planes break down at the most inopportune time - short term stupid and long term pain. And who gets the blame for all the engine problems....you bet, the pilots for "not knowing how to operate these engines properly".

Aviation is just a screwed up industry. If you work for a somewhat "reputable" firm, you should thank your lucky stars. Because I'd put the "reputable" companies at about 1 out of a 100. You don't see classified ads or "need pilots" signs at any reputable firm because there's a line longer than to get into American Idol tryouts. They never need pilots. You may get lucky by knowing someone who knows someone. More often than not, these pilot jobs are not 135 but part 91 operations. Usually small. A nice mom and pop business that got big enough to need a jet or turboprop.

 

[tarp]

And I will follow my own post with another.

Yes, we pilots are to blame as well. I want to hang out a sign saying "Senior, experienced, reputable pilot available who holds high ethical standards, follows regulations and provides top quality service to company and passengers".

I'm looking for the same from the company who will reward such a person for doing this exemplary job.

But let's get real. How ethical am I? I'm the guy who has winked (and winced a little) at 10, 20 and in some airplanes as much as 200lbs over gross. Oh a little pencil wipping will get the numbers in line but my head won't let me forget the number of times I have sat there thinking boy I sure hope I don't get a flameout on this departure.

I have ignored those pesky lights. Why does a nav light always have to burnout on a cold winter Sunday night in the middle of nowhere Maine? I'm going to ground a customer paying $10,000 for this Charter because my little green light isn't working?

"Boss, I've been telling you now for 20 hours that the 100hr is coming due!"
"Well just do the trip and the trip back is return to maintenance base but I'll pay you flight pay instead of repos pay".

When did I let myself get into this negotiation? I'm going to knowingly and willing do a round trip taking a plane over the 100 hour limit by a good shake and then the boss has the audacity to tell me he's going to be a nice guy and NOT dock my pay when if this was a legal flight it would be a regular trip and deadhead?

And the answer is because "the next guy" will take the trip and I won't get any money or flight time.

The holes we dig keep getting bigger and deeper. And then one day you stand there like I did and draw a line - OK, I've broken many, many rules to keep this company going but TODAY you have aked me to do too much. It really doesn't have much strength behind the words does it. Yet, I guess we all get there eventually. 400lbs over gross in a twin prop into 100 and a half weather with a piece of duct tape over the turn coordinator that is in a constant left standard rate turn and NOW you decide this is too much to handle?

And the whole time, I watch a 24 yr old brand new CFI who took my job, flew the trip (broken turn coordinator and all) and I realize the only thing I saved was my own neck. The business will keep on chugging along until a flight so ugly comes up that no pilot will accept....then the company will fix the cheapest thing that will make that trip palatable to the least picky pilot. Someone once told me of the concept of LCD or Lowest Common Denominator and now I know what it means.

I have met the enemy and it is me.

 

[G-force]

Resolving the Problem

That's very noble of them.

Why do they release airplanes that are too close to due times to complete the mission? Ah, of course; so they can bust ass on some poor pilot who just happened to miss the inspection time there.

Why do they release pilots to fly into questionable wx in the first place? Mod't to heavy ice? Closed airports/runways? Severe TRW? Ahh, check previous analysis...

And why would they "drop the hammer" on you? 'Cause it helps them avoid the inevitable fine from the FAA.

135 on-demand is the bottom-feeder of this industry. I've flown for them & have had friends who did as well. Someone always claims to have found the "non-bottom" feeder but it never turns out to be true.

Fly safe,
C

Sounds like you have "been around the block" in this business.Any ideas on how to resolve the matter?? reg changes,etc..???

 

[imotis]

Sounds like you have "been around the block" in this business.Any ideas on how to resolve the matter?? reg changes,etc..???

2000TT? He hasn't been THAT far around the block.

 

[Corona]

Sounds like you have "been around the block" in this business.Any ideas on how to resolve the matter?? reg changes,etc..???

The best method is what ain't gonna happen: Noone goes to work for those types. I did (granted those companies weren't as bad as what was described here), and with full knowledge before hiring on.

However, you have a good point: The Feds need to crack down on enforcing the 13 days off/quarter spelled out in the regs for starters; none of this "didn't work yesterday so that's your day off" crap.

To keep the topic of the day, I'll bring up the Comair accident: My guess is that crew fatigue played a role, however large or small. Too many airline (& 135) schedules screw up the crew's Circadian rythyms. I've definitely been tired enough to make stupid mistakes in airplanes.

C

 

[Corona]

2000TT? He hasn't been THAT far around the block.

It actually reads "2000+", there, eagle-eyed old-timer! That could pretty much mean anything.

Some of us who've been around the block, or at least halfway, figured out long ago it's not too difficult to discover people's identities as they post "anonymously" here, based just on their profiles.

Cheers,
C

 

[G-force]

New Conditions For Charter Operators

Part 135 and FAR compliance can't be used in the same sentence, I have worked for at least ten 135 operators and not one complied completely with the FARs, as a matter of fact my very last 135 employer has been brought up on a Federal rap (and the DM) for falsifying maintenance records at our Air Ambulance, along with bank fraud. The biggest operator (135) I worked for was part of the Mesa Group of Farmington, NM., some of the most flagrant law breakers I've ever worked for, they're all the same in my eyes.

Name the conditions you would IMPOSE on 135 on-demand pax/freight operators to resolve the problem.

 

[Way2Broke]

2000TT? He hasn't been THAT far around the block.

I find that the higher timers doing the jobs that lower time guys are qualified for are the hardest ones to convince that they are doing something wrong. They have learned how to work the books so that everything works. I'm not saying that this is you, just saying that this is typical. Then again there is usually a reason they are at that job.