Procedure debate

[GravityHater]

copilot says no, I say yes.
You are given PD to a lower altitude.
You continue at cruise altitude 10 mins then start down.
A 'vacating' call is required by the regs.

Do I owe him a beer?
top marks only to referenced responses.

 

[whaleroast]

I once flew with a guy who announced after every drink: "leaving beer 3 for beer 4" etc... After that, I thought anyone who reported vacating an altitude was a ******************************bag. But I think it is a reg nonetheless.

 

[Secret Agent]

You have to announce vacating an altitude. You win.

 

[Say Again Over]

I agree with previous post, a good operating procedure.

 

[epic!]

He owes you one

 

[GravityHater]

how about a link, a reference? Right now, I'm winning a coke and I really want the beer!

 

[Booker]

OK, so if it's is required by FAR, which FAR? (Serious question, I'm not being an azz.) I thought the only place this is discussed is in AIM 5-3-3(a)(1)(a).

 

[TigerDriver]

While not specific , FAR 91.183(c) says that:

Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the pilot in command of each aircraft operated under IFR in controlled airspace must ensure that a continuous watch is maintained on the appropriate frequency and must report the following as soon as possible—
(a) The time and altitude of passing each designated reporting point, or the reporting points specified by ATC, except that while the aircraft is under radar control, only the passing of those reporting points specifically requested by ATC need be reported;
(b) Any unforecast weather conditions encountered; and
(c) Any other information relating to the safety of flight

one could infer that vacating an assigned altitude, while descending to another assigned altitude, in a timeframe as determined by the pilot and not the controlling authority(ies) would constitute a safety of flight issue and be covered by (c) above....

 

[bizjet800]

While not specific , FAR 91.183(c) says that:

Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, the pilot in command of each aircraft operated under IFR in controlled airspace must ensure that a continuous watch is maintained on the appropriate frequency and must report the following as soon as possible—
(a) The time and altitude of passing each designated reporting point, or the reporting points specified by ATC, except that while the aircraft is under radar control, only the passing of those reporting points specifically requested by ATC need be reported;
(b) Any unforecast weather conditions encountered; and
(c) Any other information relating to the safety of flight

one could infer that vacating an assigned altitude, while descending to another assigned altitude, in a timeframe as determined by the pilot and not the controlling authority(ies) would constitute a safety of flight issue and be covered by (c) above....

I could be wrong, but I disagree. The controller is saying: you are at X altitude, and when you're ready descend to Y altitude. ATC is giving you both altitudes and everything in between. Although I do report vacating altitudes, I don't think its required.

 

[rice]

IMHO and that of my crusty old "On-wing" instructor in the Navy, it's not required by FAR or the AIM since you've already acknowledged the instruction when responding to the original clearance of PD FLXXX.
That said, I usually let'em know just for the hell of it unless the freq. is slammed.

 

[FO4life]

This is all I found.4-4-10. Adherence to Clearance
c. The term "AT PILOT'S DISCRETION" included in the altitude information of an ATC clearance means that ATC has offered the pilot the option to start climb or descent when the pilot wishes, is authorized to conduct the climb or descent at any rate, and to temporarily level off at any intermediate altitude as desired. However, once the aircraft has vacated an altitude, it may not return to that altitude.
I don't think it is "required" but we do it as a curtsey.

 

[BoilerUP]

5-3-3. Additional Reports ​

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Rice is one smart MOFO, and an EASy expert...and hell even if he reeks like Curry, I agree with him.

You have made the required report when you acknowledged the Descent clearance, even if you wait another 5 mins for VNAV .

Its a courtesy call.

Hence usually a quick "roger" when you make it. They wont re-issue the clearance or confirm anything. They really dont care IMO.

Has anyone ever not made the courtesy call right away and gotten questioned or violated for leaving altitude? I never have....sometimes it takes 500-1000ft to get room on the frequency and all you ever get is "roger"...

Just my .02

 

[K.V.]

In this case a 'vacating' call would be redundant and for that matter, not required.

​

[/QUOTE]

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

When a controler gives you a PD clearance and you accept it, at that time you've accepted the entire clearance limit for that block altitude. Also, by accepting the PD clearance you have vacated the previosly assigned altitude. You are no longer flying at that assigned altitude and are now opperating in the block altitude.


[/QUOTE]This is all I found.4-4-10. Adherence to Clearance
c. The term "AT PILOT'S DISCRETION" included in the altitude information of an ATC clearance means that ATC has offered the pilot the option to start climb or descent when the pilot wishes, is authorized to conduct the climb or descent at any rate, and to temporarily level off at any intermediate altitude as desired. However, once the aircraft has vacated an altitude, it may not return to that altitude.[/QUOTE]


So with that being said, in your block altitude that you've been given you could temprarily level off 10 times if you wanted to, but in the same sense you're not required to give a 'vacating' call after every time you do.


I think you owe him a beer.

 

[GravityHater]

hmmm the usual legal quandary that pilots face...
its not in the FARS, but IS in the AIM.
"AIM is not regulatory".....BUT some say the FAA has busted people for what IS in the AIM.....a de facto statement that the AIM IS INDEED REGULATORY!!!

 

[dhc8fo]

You have made the required report when you acknowledged the Descent clearance, even if you wait another 5 mins for VNAV .

Not to be an azz either, but where do you guys find that just acknowledging the clearance suffices as the report?

I hate questions like this because if you get into the nitty gritty, you can interpret it a million ways. I do report vacating on PD because I consider it vacating an alt. I always get a roger or thank you for it too. I think there is a greater chance of getting dinged for NOT reporting than there is FOR reporting.

 

[K.V.]

BUT some say the FAA has busted people for what IS in the AIM

I'm going to have to throw the BS card down on this one man.

 

[Tgaug6300]

I do it because controllers are human (and are prone to forgetting too). I also state my descent if I have been handed over to another controller prior to starting the PD descent.

 

[K.V.]

Not to be an azz either, but where do you guys find that just acknowledging the clearance suffices as the report?

Because when you acknowledge the clearance, you are no longer flying at an assigned altitude.

 

[LJ45]

well... reporting leaving from an altitude saved us going in to TEB on the Jaike arrival. Cleared to decend per the arrival and the PF saw the VS gettting pretty high to make WACKI at 11,0'00 and 250 Kts, So he said "I am starting down" and I report the alt. leaving. Phlly answers you have to maintain 13,000 to ILENE, but don't worry about it, many folks miss it. Well, I caught it right as he was saying that and reported that we see that now and are still level at 13,000. Moral of the story, it can save you and be careful out there on those arrivals.

 

[ksu_aviator]

“climb at pilot’s discretion” in the altitude information
of an ATC clearance, it means that you have the option
to start a climb when you wish, that you are authorized
to climb at any rate, and to temporarily level off at any
intermediate altitude as desired, although once you​

vacate an altitude, you may not return to that altitude.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/media/CH-03.pdf

So if we accept that vacating an altitude is a required report, than the argument that you own the altitude is invalid. In the climb or decent, once you leave an altitude you can not return without a clearance.

 

[dhc8fo]

Because when you acknowledge the clearance, you are no longer flying at an assigned altitude.

I UNDERSTAND what you're saying, but just like the original question, WHERE do you see THAT written?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Not to be an azz either, but where do you guys find that just acknowledging the clearance suffices as the report?

Why wouldn't it!

You rec'd a clearance to descend and you acknowledged it. Done.

You can interpret the AIM all day, somewhere common sense has to apply.

Meanwhile, if you are still afraid to descend when cleared, just keep asking.

Id like to hear of any case where someone was questioned for descending without a courtesy call once CLEARED lower, PD or not.

whatever makes ya comfy. No big deal.

 

[K.V.]

I UNDERSTAND what you're saying, but just like the original question, WHERE do you see THAT written?

See what written?? That when you accept a new clearance you are no longer on your old clearance?

 

[Tristar]

Why wouldn't it!

You rec'd a clearance to descend and you acknowledged it. Done.

You can interpret the AIM all day, somewhere common sense has to apply.

Meanwhile, if you are still afraid to descend when cleared, just keep asking.

Id like to hear of any case where someone was questioned for descending without a courtesy call once CLEARED lower, PD or not.

whatever makes ya comfy. No big deal.

I've always taken it that this is EXACTLY the scenario when you would need to report vacating your last assigned altitude. Regarding common sense, under normal circumstances when would you ever leave your last assigned altitude without receiving and acknowledging the new clearance? If simply acknowledging the clearance covers is, why is that paragraph even in the AIM? There must be some reason for it to be there.

 

[K.V.]

I've always taken it that this is EXACTLY the scenario when you would need to report vacating your last assigned altitude. Regarding common sense, under normal circumstances when would you ever leave your last assigned altitude without receiving and acknowledging the new clearance? If simply acknowledging the clearance covers is, why is that paragraph even in the AIM? There must be some reason for it to be there.

Again, once you've accepted the PD clearance, the altitude you're flying at is no longer you last assigned altitude. From that point forward your last assigned altitude is the one the controller cleared you to descend to.

 

[GravityHater]

You know what, I am going to ask a controller what they expect, next flight and report back! In fact I will ask several different ones (I get a PD every flight)
K.V. I hear about these aim busts on various forums but do not have the resources to find a reference right now..can anyone else confirm?

 

[K.V.]

Regarding common sense, under normal circumstances when would you ever leave your last assigned altitude without receiving and acknowledging the new clearance?

How about if for whatever reason you are unable to maintain your last assigned altitude, ie. temperature inversion, turbulence, mountain wave, ect. Albeit that's not exactly a 'normal circumstance', but does it need to be?

You know what, I am going to ask a controller what they expect, next flight and report back! In fact I will ask several different ones (I get a PD every flight)
K.V. I hear about these aim busts on various forums but do not have the resources to find a reference right now..can anyone else confirm?

You just don't want to let go of that beer do you?

 

[waka]

In this case a 'vacating' call would be redundant and for that matter, not required.

When a controler gives you a PD clearance and you accept it, at that time you've accepted the entire clearance limit for that block altitude. Also, by accepting the PD clearance you have vacated the previosly assigned altitude. You are no longer flying at that assigned altitude and are now opperating in the block altitude.

That's not true and it doesn't even make sense.You have not vacated a previously assigned altitude until the airplane physically leaves that altitude.

 

[Booker]

If simply acknowledging the clearance covers is, why is that paragraph even in the AIM? There must be some reason for it to be there.

The only situation in which I've seen vacating calls used in a practical manner is when the controller is utilizing the latter option contained in 7110.65 5-5-5(b):

Assign an altitude to an aircraft after the aircraft previously at that altitude has been issued a climb/descent clearance and is observed (valid Mode C), or reports leaving the altitude.

Don Brown wrote that when you have a cluster of airplanes in a holding stack, it's difficult to observe a particular target's mode C readout, so when you release an airplane out of the pattern and then downshift everyone, it's quicker to assign each airplane a lower altitude if they all just report vacating their assigned altitudes, rather than waiting and trying to see each data block show the descent. Or something like that.

No, this doesn't have anything to do with the OP's question. Sorry.