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"stupid "civil liberties" garbage "

sqwkvfr--

I always try to attack the idea and not the person but you make me very upset.

You make me very upset.

[... ... ... ...]


Do you think that just because there are no Checkpoint Charlies and no barbed wire barriers and no disappearences that your rights, YOUR RIGHTS, haven't been eroded?

You make me very upset.


YOU have lost the right to due process.
YOU have the lost the freedom of protection from unlawful search and seizures.
YOU have lost the right of privacy at your library/bookstore.
YOU have lost the right of counsel.
YOU have lost the right to know what you're being charged with.

You make me very upset.


But make no mistake --this country is not the bastion of freedom and human rights and DEMOCRACY that it used to be. It has become the laughing stock of the civilized world because we have allowed our leaders, through our own fat lazy myopic complacency to SELL OUT the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

"No one is free, until we are all free."
--Martin Luther King.

This is serious sh!t. This isn't about gettin' your super-size, your SUV and your satellite TV.

You make me very upset.

[Edited for blunt, vulgar, inappropriate language and to apologize to sqkvfr, women and children everywhere]
 
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Huh?

Ok, for starters, I lost the ability for due proces if the TSA takes my certificate and my ability to make a living based upon their "opinion."

OK, let us know who this has happened to. You have been stating this same mantra on other threads and it holds no water. Untill it happens, it is not really a lost entitlement. What about the DEA law passed during the Clinton Administration that deals with the confiscation of vehicles that were implicated somehow to illegal drugs. A freind of your child who is riding in your vehicle that your child is driving gets caught with drugs at a routine traffic stop and your car gets confiscated even though you or your child did not know a thing about it. This has happened hundreds of times. I guess that since the Clinton administration OK'd that one, it is not a due process problem. Only Bush can cause that. Go Figure.:rolleyes:

Typhoon
Well, my privacy (with regard to electronic communication) went out the window with the Patriot Act.

Huh? Splain please! You lost me on this one. Thanks. :eek:
 
Untill it happens, it is not really a lost entitlement.

In fact, your certificate is not something you are entitled to. It is a revokable privilege. It is issued subject to any whim of the issuing agent, in this case, the United States government. Under many circumstances, you have recourse if it is revoked. In some cases, you do not.

The idea of a "right to privacy" is an interesting discussion. We can have that, if you like. For instance, the constitution has a covenant against "unreasonable" search and siezure. Ususally, a judge determines what is "reasonable." That is, however, not the only way the "reasonable" nature of a search action can be determined. Covert counter-terorrism activity is a necessity where terrorists hope to take advantage of our open society and easy communication ability. In fact, until a certain case, the Griswold case, there was only a vague notion of a right to privacy under common law and what was described as the "penumbras" of the amendments we know as the Bill of Rights. Noble in its intent, these penumbras seek to extend the rights articulated by the Amendments to areas not so described, such as is the case in Roe v. Wade.

We like to think that the idea of "due process" extends to all areas of our lives, when in fact it does not. You would think that tresspassing, for example, always leads to a hearing and some sort of public record legal action. Not so. There are many military reservations that clearly state "use of deadly force is authorized." No trial. No hearing. Shot dead. While this must certainly be a rarity, it IS perfectly legal, and has been so for many decades.

So we are left with difficult choices. Do nothing, and be ravaged and overtaken. Exercise due dilligence, and be taken to task for violating the "right to privacy." The very same "privacy" that the terorrists need, and indeed are counting on in order to carry out their plans for the future destruction of America.

Some choice, isn't it?
 
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Too much BS from him - no stem cell research, the FCC, Homeland Security, Iraq, immigration, the list goes on...

So good to know that this is not the sentiment of most Americans.
 
Re: Huh?

Tim47SIP said:
Huh? Splain please! You lost me on this one.
Okay, let me try to "splain" this in words even you can understand:

The government now has more freedom to listen to your phone calls and read your eMail.

And they should! Monitoring of electronic communication is part of any war. They watch for certain combinations of keywords and investigate the source.

But right or wrong, in the end it means you've lost a degree of privacy.

Still lost?
 
I've been bad

sqkvfr--I owe you a public apology for my previous post. It's been edited and retains the central message but without the inflammatory language.

Been a little testy lately. Sorry.

TB--it's in your best interests to defend civil rights.
 
What about the DEA law passed during the Clinton Administration that deals with the confiscation of vehicles that were implicated somehow to illegal drugs. A friend of your child who is riding in your vehicle that your child is driving gets caught with drugs at a routine traffic stop and your car gets confiscated even though you or your child did not know a thing about it. This has happened hundreds of times.

As a former DEA agent, I must say your post doesn't tell the whole story. The vehicle may be seized but has to undergo the same due process as an individual might before it is forfeited to the government. In the scenario you described I can say with confidence that the car would almost definitely be returned. Reference Title 21 USC
 
TB--it's in your best interests to defend civil rights.

Of course it is, with a foundation of the safety and security of every American in mind as we deal with these issues.

We can be supportive of rights while understanding that they are not always immutable, nor unlimited. For example, carried to the logical conclusion of the loudest "rights" protesters and activists, we have no "right" to search people before they board an aircraft. No "right" to look at who a person is before allowing them to fly.

There are no easy answers here, only sensible ones.
 
He is my president

He's not perfect but he is my president. God Bless him. With whatever flaws he has his ten times the president that any democratic appeaser could ever be.
 
Re: I've been bad

mar said:
sqkvfr--I owe you a public apology for my previous post. It's been edited and retains the central message but without the inflammatory language.

Been a little testy lately. Sorry.

TB--it's in your best interests to defend civil rights.

Dammit! OK, here's my heavily edited reply:

These issues that you discuss have a lot to do with the 4th amendment....this means that you want to treat the terrorist problem as a legal issue. IT'S NOT! The government has tried to prosecute ONE 9-11 terrorist in the legal system....perhaps you've heard of the Zaccharias Moussui case in Minnesota? Do you know that this has turned into a legal nightmare? Do you know that in the court of law there's thing thing called "discovery" that requires the prosecution to turn over any and all evidence against a defendant? Do you understand that when prosecuting terrorist "discovery" will destroy oodles of intelligence AND render useless the method by which it was gained? President Clinton (and mind you, I'm not blaming the man or his adminstration) tried to treat terrorism as a law enforcement problem and it didn't work! The CIA and NSA by federal statute couldn't talk to the FBI, DEA, FAA or whomever...that's changed as a result the same patriot act that you seem to despise so much, but it's still very hard to give this information to domestic law enforcement and eventually, through "discovery," right back to the terrorists. For this reason, a lot of people think that terrorist need to be treated as war criminals....and it makes sense to me.

You say this is serious.....you're right! I gotta tell ya, I'm glad those terrorist are locked up in Cuba as opposed to walking the streets of this country........One can only wonder how many attacks have been prevented. George Tenet said recently that after years of cuts, it's gonna take another FIVE YEARS to recruit, train, and place enough agents to get the US's intelligence services up to snuff...until then, I'm willing to do what it takes to make sure that another terrorist attack doesn't happen here.

Right now, somewhere, there's a person or people actively planning to kill as many westerners as possible. These people don't want our sypathy, they don't want our money, they don't want us to change....they want us DEAD. In planning this, they use telephones, the internet, tracks, cars, planes, money, PDA's, EVERYTHING! These things are not only bastians of freedom and technology, they can also make for effective and deadly weapons, and I think it's a life or death decision whether to give law enforcement and intelligence added tools to move forward against this newly emboldened and technically savvy enemy.

I worked as a law enforcement officer for 8 years....and I think the reason I attach such a negative image to someone screaming about their civil liberties is because the only people I heard it from were dopers (settle down, not you) in cuffs and on their way to jail.

You have every right to be concerned...this is a fuzzy area, but until we give terrorism a good hard knock on it's ass (and mind you I don't think we've done that just yet), I'm willing to give George W and Co. the benefit of the doubt.

I read your post before you edited it...believe me, I've been called worse.:D

Here's little side story on the right of having you're "rights read:"

Ernesto Miranda was arrested and convicted in Arizona for kidnapping and raping and mildly retarded 18 year old girl in 1962. Reports on this are mixed but the police interrogated "Miranda" for several hours during which he confessed to the crime. Miranda appealed, claiming that he was unaware of his "right to remain silent, etc." He won when the US Supreme Court ruled that when a person is detained and questioned, the police MUST advise him of his rights before questioning; thus the now-familliar "Miranda Warning."

Miranda was re-tried and based on other evidence, was convicted again....he served his time and was in and out of jail/prison for several years after his name became a civil rights icon. About 12 years after his landmark case, Miranda was stabbed and killed outside of a Phoenix bar. When the police arrived on scene a suspect was detained and read his rights..........he chose to remain silent: due to a lack of evidence, he was released........and Ernesto Miranda never recieved the justice that even he deserved.
 
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Typhdood

And they should! Monitoring of electronic communication is part of any war. They watch for certain combinations of keywords and investigate the source.

That stuff has been going on for some time. Nothing new here which was my point. But I do agree with you. Thanks for splain'n it so even I could understand.


Flint-

As a former DEA agent, I must say your post doesn't tell the whole story. The vehicle may be seized but has to undergo the same due process as an individual might before it is forfeited to the government. In the scenario you described I can say with confidence that the car would almost definitely be returned. Reference Title 21 USC

The scenario I described happend in Florida. I am not sure if the vehicle was returned or not, but it made national news 5-6 years ago. I guess what I was getting at here is that different variations of these laws have been in place for some. The FAA has always been able to revoke a liscense based on their own assumptions, not facts. There is of course a way to get it back. The DEA rules are a good example. The car would have been impounded pending an investigation so you will losse it for some time at least. Just stating Bush is responsible for all of these newfound lost freedoms is rediculous. These same individuals spouting that Bush is going overboard with the security issues of America are the same ones that will state that he did not do enough if we get attacked again. It will never be good enough for them unless Skarry is in charge, then all the problems will still be Bushes fault.:rolleyes:
 
Those who choose to give up essential freedoms for a little temporary security shall receive neither. I think we should remember that beautiful saying.

If you choose to give up your rights and privacy to the government, it will not stand back and just stop there. You can fight for your freedom and get killed or let the government take it away and likely get killed a few years later.

Giving up your privacy, to quote one of the Republican posters on this board, is a policy of appeasement. It may not support terrorism, but it is appeasement to one's own government for shaky reasons. If you think for one second that giving up your own personal freedom so that the government can possibly find one stinkin', no good terrorist, is a good idea, then by all means have at it. Fact of the matter is that, without the USA PATRIOT Act, the US government had the power to stop terrorism. The 9/11 hearings lend credibility (based on testimony of ALL subjects, Bushies included) that it was policy, not power, that couldn't stop 9/11 or something similar. The government already had the power to get the judicial consent needed to tap someone. It could surveil suspects. It could get a warrant based on probable cause derived from intelligence, especially if that person were a foreign citizen. It's part of the Foreign Intelligence Services Act (FISA). The USA PATRIOT Act, however, extends the powers derived from this act to allow surveillance of US citizens based on mere suspicion (not evidence) that used to be reserved only for foreigners in the US. Do not let the Bushies tell you otherwise. Go to www.house.gov and read the Act yourself. If you sort through all the BS, you'll find this power in the surveillance part. Just read the titles of each section and you'll find the power, along with that of the "sneak and peek" provision (Section 215). It allows the government to snoop your $hit and not tell you about it. The judge providing the warrant may not question the reasoning for it. (S)he must comply with the request. I find this to be rather insufficient judicial oversight, if you ask me. Go to the site and read the Act. Please. This is a disturbing Act, indeed.

Whoever said that licenses were not really property was a little off base. There are protections and due process if you're taking away anything earned, license or not. You did your training, paid your dues, keep current. The government cannot take that license away - driver, pilot, etc. - without due process. Yes, government CAN take it away, but it must go through the process. The TSA attempted to take the due process away by allowing you no appeal and no access to evidence. Kinda goes against the 5th Amendment right to face one's accuser. Again, lost freedom. Thankfully, the FY2004 FAA Reauth. Bill instates an appeal process. Sad that it took Congress to reinstate this protection. The executive branch had to be overridden...Anything you have that was earned (not simply allowed you) must be taken away by due process. This is clearly stated in the 5th Amendment. Please recognize this before your endorse any further erosion of your own personal liberties. You may need them someday.

Keep in mind that your right to bash anyone you so desire is a personal right that you so freely employ. We talk a lot about lousy government, terrorists, and endorse anti-Bush/pro-Bush propaganda here on this site. Without 1st Amendment protection, you'd have no case if you were detained, per the PATRIOT Act, based on "suspicion" of sympathizing with terrorists. The Bush Admin has made no secret that it likes to punish critics. It uses "national security" to back up its abuses of power. It's not much of a stretch for them to say that, since you are "against us," you must be "with" the terrorists, thus you may be held without charge and without access to your accuser's evidence due to "national security" reasons.

Really, the only thing protecting you from government intrusion is the Constitution. Don't be so fast to denounce it in the name of security.
 
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Those who choose to give up essential freedoms for a little temporary security shall receive neither. I think we should remember that beautiful saying.


And I believe you will find the person who coined that beautiful saying to have more parallels to the current administration than the proposed.
 
Those who choose to give up essential freedoms for a little temporary security shall receive neither. I think we should remember that beautiful saying.

Then the question is "what freedoms, or rather their manifestations, are essential?" If we cling to a static idea in the face of a changing dynamic, are we wise, or foolish?


If you choose to give up your rights and privacy to the government, it will not stand back and just stop there. You can fight for your freedom and get killed or let the government take it away and likely get killed a few years later.


No one is talking about "giving up your rights." What we are discussing, or at least what I think we are discussing, is the question of the level of privacy we can afford or expect as individuals while terrorist elements are using privacy as a part of their plan to destroy us. How much "privacy" is too much, and how little is not enough?

Let's say we draw a line in the sand, and instead of the judicially sanctioned, carefully drawn, and appropriate use of domestic intelligence that is part of our current defensive posture, we opt to go in the reverse direction. We revoke the Patriot Act, and disband Homeland Security, returning to a pre-attack status quo of "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil." Would this give terrorist elements the added advantage they need to operate here with impunity? Possibly so. In fact, we already know that our political and social sensitivity to those of foreign origins, our pre-existing level of privacy, and our notion that appeasement is an effective tool in maintaining our security was proven dreadfully inadequate on 9-11. While there are loud voices complaining that we have embarked on a mistaken path, those same voices offer no alternative plans to either Patriot or Homeland Security. Why? Perhaps it is because this is the only path we have, given the present circumstances.



Fact of the matter is that, without the USA PATRIOT Act, the US government had the power to stop terrorism. The 9/11 hearings lend credibility (based on testimony of ALL subjects, Bushies included) that it was policy, not power, that couldn't stop 9/11 or something similar.

With this amount of hogwash, we are getting a very clean hog.

The 9-11 investigation is a political vehicle meant to reclaim power. That's the whole idea in a nutshell. When you have long grandstanding speeches from democrats trying to get a grip on lost power while pretending to ask questions, using a book put on sale during an election written by a demoted and clearly disgruntled staff member whose private testimony does not square with his published testimony, you have a commission whose intent is questionable at best.

The reason that they are upset with Condi Rice is that they have no opportunity to lecture her publicly, and give more speeches that they hope to eventually use as sound bites. What a terrible disappointment for them.

The intent of folks like Richard Clark, Madeliane Albright, and the chorus of others who were on duty before the Bush administration moved into the White House is to make their eight years of inaction appear reasonable, as if they were doing all the right things and had the situation well in hand, and it was only some fault of the Bush administration, some lack of insight, ability, or activity that resulted in the 9-11 attack.

If you believe that, we don't have a common basis for a discussion. We might as well call in Ted Kennedy to explain how Bush concocted a war in Texas in order to benefit himself and his friends. It's sad to hear how half a century of hard drinking has destroyed Ted's mind. At least the young George Bush had the good sense to stop years ago.



The USA PATRIOT Act, however, extends the powers derived from this act to allow surveillance of US citizens based on mere suspicion (not evidence) that used to be reserved only for foreigners in the US. Do not let the Bushies tell you otherwise. Go to www.house.gov and read the Act yourself. If you sort through all the BS, you'll find this power in the surveillance part. Just read the titles of each section and you'll find the power, along with that of the "sneak and peek" provision (Section 215). It allows the government to snoop your $hit and not tell you about it.

I hate to be the one to reveal this, but this surveillance has been going on on a small scale for a long time. 9-11 showed that the previous level of surveillance was insufficient for the purpose. Therefore, we clearly needed to increase our diligence to the level of "due."

Now we can go ahead and revoke the Patriot Act if you like, but I don't think the resulting mayhem is a good trade against whether they know which commercials I have told a friend about in my emails, or which bills I paid this month out of my checking account. I other words, I have more to gain from a "sneak and peek" as a citizen than I see as a benefit of keeping that information more secret.



The TSA attempted to take the due process away by allowing you no appeal and no access to evidence. Kinda goes against the 5th Amendment right to face one's accuser. Again, lost freedom. Thankfully, the FY2004 FAA Reauth. Bill instates an appeal process. Sad that it took Congress to reinstate this protection. The executive branch had to be overridden...Anything you have that was earned (not simply allowed you) must be taken away by due process.

I have to point out to you that due process can simply be the written law that allows them to do it, as given in the trespass example above. Congress can certainly override this idea, which is one of the reasons we have three branches of government. Now, if you can get the judicairy to stop legislating things that could never be passed by our elected representatives, then you will start to get support from me. Want to keep the 10 commandments out of a couthouse? Pass a law in congress. You and I know that can't happen, since that would violate the first amendment. If only the courts knew they had no standing in this matter, according to the founders.



Keep in mind that your right to bash anyone you so desire is a personal right that you so freely employ.

I try to avoid bashing people, only errant ideas.



The Bush Admin has made no secret that it likes to punish critics.

Every administration tries to punish critics. And critics try to punish administrations. Was this a secret to you?



It uses "national security" to back up its abuses of power.

If Congress legally gives power, is its use an "abuse?" What abuses are you talking about?


Really, the only thing protecting you from government intrusion is the Constitution. Don't be so fast to denounce it in the name of security.

These statements come with subtexts of supposition, like the reference to "abuse of power." The word "abuse" is chosen quite purposefully, and is intended to be taken at face value, as if it is a known value. Unless proven, this is only a charge, an opinion, or an impression.

So, you think someone has "denounced" the constitution. Who has done that here? No one has. It's a red herring.

So, why not ditch some of the hyperbole, the Kennedyesque subtexts, and come up with some real alternative suggestions. Anyone who does so will be the FIRST, since no one I have heard has shared a single new or improved idea. All I hear is complaints, and not a suggestion among the critics. The truth is this: many liberals DO have an alternative idea or two, but they dare not articulate those ideas, since none of them will fly with the American people. This is why the senate democrats fear appointing judges who will judge according to the law, and not see their job as a de facto legislator. This could lead to forcing liberals to bring bills before the public and having them defeated, instead of having the country ruled by federal courts who are friendly to their ideas. This is in a word, tyranny, and anyone interested in the subject of "rights" should be very interested in its defeat.
 
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merikeyegro said:
Some guys have a serious complex when dealing with me, I guess.

...I've made it no secret that Bush needs to go, ...

Someone oughta choke that man with the American flag. Maybe I'll just do it myself.

Freedom of speech at work, boys.
Nope, that's not freedom of speech. Threatening harm to the sitting President of the United States of America is serious business, and it is NOT protected speech. I'd say this Message Board is incurring a serious risk by allowing this type of posting to remain.



Hey MAR - - I'm surprised to see you posting on this thread. I would have thought that you would have skipped over it based solely on the title. After all, it's not aviation related!

Admit it, friend. You like to talk about other stuff, too!

:) :) Cheers! :) ;)
 
Why are all of you pilots? It seems painstakingly obvious to me that you should be in politics or the leaders of some movement to change things as you see fit (be it right or left). It blows me away to see such cranial talent wasted. :confused:


Enough already, try again in '08. :mad:

TB is as close to being correct as any here, wake up. Try to tell me that most of America doesn't share his beliefs? Sway it any way you want.............
 
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Tony C

Why am I posting here? To be perfectly honest: I snapped.

I was temporarily insane. Blinded with rage. I was in a fit of all-consuming passion.

Your typical conservative these days is of the opinion that there is nothing American about being liberal.

I'm on a righteous crusade to remind neo-cons everywhere of the tremendous liberal tradition we used to call American Democracy.

Today it's known simply as Special Interest.

So when I came across a post that seemed to diminish the importance of the struggle, not just in this nation, but world-wide, for maintaining ourselves as leaders in modern civilization in the arena of civil rights--well, my dear friends and esteemed colleagues--I just sort of LOST MY FRIGGIN' MARBLES.

Know what I mean?

Oh wait.

You mean, it's not aviation related. I never really cared about that to begin with. I just wanted to get Bart banned from the board.

Have a nice day.:cool:
 
Re: Tony C

mar said:
You mean, it's not aviation related. I never really cared about that to begin with. I just wanted to get Bart banned from the board.

Have a nice day.:cool:
LOL OK, OK, OK... we hear ya!

... and a nice weekend, too!

:) :) ;) :)
 

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