President Bush

[Caveman]

I love it when liberal democrats try to portray themselves as defenders of liberty when their actions and legislation are the antithesis of personal freedoms.

The following examples of defending personal liberty are all brought to you courtesy of liberal democrats:

Sealtbelt laws.

Antigun laws.

Roadblocks to screen for drunk drivers. So much for the 4th Ammendment.

Affirmative action.

The social security pyramid scheme.

Hate crime legislation. (aka the Thought Police)

The ACLU's relentless and continuing attack on my right to practice my religion.

Redistribution of personal wealth via the IRS.

Republicans have their share of ideas that I'm not crazy about either but the idea that neo-libs are protecting our interests is patently false.

 

[TonyC]

Why are all of you pilots? It seems painstakingly obvious to me that you should be in politics or the leaders of some movement to change things as you see fit (be it right or left). It blows me away to see such cranial talent wasted.

You caught us. We're not pilots, we just pose as pilots. Some of us stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night, and the rest of us are 11th grade English teachers.


The expression is "painfully obvious."

"Painstakingly" has a completely different usage.

 

[mar]

Caveman

I assume you're referring to me.

I'm not a liberal democrat.

I'm your worst nightmare.

By the way, explain to me how the ACLU is attacking your right to practice your religion?

By removing "under God"? The bloody persecution!! Yes, soon we'll all be godless-commies. You're right. This country is in lock-down from the radicals.

And seatbelt laws/helmet laws/smoking laws/anti-gun laws/etc...those my friend are all the result of Special Interests/Lobbyists.

One person. One vote. = Democracy.

If it were up to me there would be no ACLU and likewise no Christian Coalition. There would be no NOW and likewise no NRA.

I hope it's warm in your Cave. Man.

 

[Timebuilder]

TB is as close to being correct as any here, wake up. Try to tell me that most of America doesn't share his beliefs? Sway it any way you want.............

I'm sorry, I wasn't able to follow that comment. Can you expand on it so I can address it? Whose beliefs?

Mar, if you don't get answers to those questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

 

[Swass]

TB, I was a little tipsy when I posted that last night, sorry to you and TonyC for all the garble.

What I meant by that is that I agree wholeheartedly with your stance, politically and otherwise. You make great arguments, and articulate them very well. Although I am getting bored with politics as of late, I still can't keep coming back for more. These discussions are like heroin to a junkie in need of a fix.

 

[Snakum]

are you really comparing the Bush administration to nazi Germany?

How's this ...

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denouce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." - Herman Goering

Minh
(Hey ... you asked. )

 

[Timebuilder]

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denouce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." - Herman Goering

Okay, you asked.

All that quote shows is that evil can mimic good. Satan does this all the time. Evil appears rational and sometimes, even compassionate. Evil exploits our tendencey to trust ourselves, rather than God, or even a Godly man who is a leader.

In other words, Goering was exposing that people can be lied to, not revealing that every time we are attacked (which cannot be denied) it is for some evil or secondary purpose for the end of misleading people.

The important difference that might be missed is that the same words have two entirely different applications, one of truth, and one of deceit. Goering was highlighting how easy that deceit came to the third reich. Ted Kennedy says things that are not true all the time, but that doesn't make him a nazi any more than George Bush is a nazi. It does make Kennedy disingenuous, but we already knew that.

 

[Caveman]

mar,

You assume wrong. It wasn't directed at you personally. I made a statement that essentially equates neo-libs with hypocrisy. But, if the shoe fits.....

I'm your worst nightmare. I doubt it, but self-serving big government liberal philosophy is.

Technically it's a representive republic, not a democracy.

As far as the ACLU goes, well for starters my kids aren't allowed to meet after class to have a prayer meeting with other like minded kids. I'd say that qualifies as religious oppression. Actually the original concept of the ACLU was a good one but it's been corrupted by neo-lib anti-gun pro-homosexual atheists. If they stuck to their original charter and defended individual rights instead of only promoting a leftist agenda they would get my support.

Those special interest laws were all foisted upon us by neo-lib organizations.

You still didn't address confiscatory taxation or affirmative action.

Finally, your last resort was an ad hominem dig at my nickname. Pretty lame.

 

[Tim47SIP]

What?

I'm not a liberal democrat.

OK, I'll bite, just what the heck are you? I think I have my definitions wrong.

Caveman
The following examples of defending personal liberty are all brought to you courtesy of liberal democrats:

Affirmative action.

I could be wrong here, but after doing some research, I think the GOP was unfortunately responsible for affirmative action. Sometimes we are are own worst enemies.

 

[mar]

Labels

<sigh> Where would politics be without labels?

That's right, I'm not a liberal democrat.

I consider myself "liberal" only because it's convenient to use the label but I happen to have some stereotypical conservative beliefs as well. For example, I'm in favor of gun ownership.

Not that it's anybody's business (but I've posted it before so it's no secret) I happen to be a card carrying member of the Green Party.

So America isn't a democracy. It's a representative republic. Ok. Very well. The way I see it, one term describes the *spirit* of America (Democratic) and the other (representative republic) is a more technically correct description of how our government works--or should I say, *should* work.

You know, I hate semantics.
And I have a real distaste for rhetoric.

You know why? Because it's obsures the real argument.

Another thing Caveman, your description of how your family suffers "oppression" smacks of the same crap that I'm sure makes you sick to your stomach when a lazy minority blames his problems on "the Man that's keeping him down."

Oppression.

Give me a break. You don't know from oppression. Jews in WWII Germany could still manage to practice.

Christians in the USSR could still manage.

Buddhist monks in China seem to gather the necessary resolve.

So your kids have problems meeting for cupcakes with other kids after school. That's a bummer and sounds really silly to me but let's not get melodramatic ok?

Look, any point you had to make pretty much fell apart when you suggested that every modern problem this nation has is the result of the Liberal.

Even your compatriot Tim47SIP has taken issue with your stance.

Nothing will ever be honestly addressed until people can start attacking ISSUES rather than assigning BLAME.

But it's much easier to point fingers (and make lame ad hominen attacks) isn't it?

Peace brother, worship however you like.

 

[Timebuilder]

The GOP is responsible for the passing of the Civil Rights Act, not the addition of "affirmative action."

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/affirmative1.html

As far as the ACLU goes, well for starters my kids aren't allowed to meet after class to have a prayer meeting with other like minded kids. I'd say that qualifies as religious oppression. Actually the original concept of the ACLU was a good one but it's been corrupted by neo-lib anti-gun pro-homosexual atheists. If they stuck to their original charter and defended individual rights instead of only promoting a leftist agenda they would get my support.

I agree. Much of what used to be the good work of the ACLU has become lost as it has transformed into an engine of the left.

If the ACLU was truly interested in the civil liberties guaranteed under the constitution, they would be holding rallys for private property rights and the ability to exercise religious beliefs.

I would imagine there is an even smaller chance of that happening than a Beatles reunion concert. Even if you raised George and John from the dead.

 

[Caveman]

mar,

"Look, any point you had to make pretty much fell apart when you suggested that every modern problem this nation has is the result of the Liberal."

I didn't suggest that every modern problem is the result of liberalism. I listed a few problems that were brought to us courtesy of liberalism. I'm pleased to see that we do agree those specific items are problems and that they are liberal ideas.

As one who subscribes to christian beliefs I am being oppressed. I am not allowed to publicly affirm my beliefs without being shouted down. I don't want to change your mind I just want to be able to wear a cross on my lapel without some atheist screaming that I'm forcing my religion on him. I want my kids to be able to silently pray without some leftist teacher stopping them. I want to be able to voluntarily gather with other christian minded souls and be able to do so at publicly funded buildings that we helped pay for without the American Communist Left Union trying to stop us. I'm not asking you, the governemnt or the ACLU to pray with us nor agree with us. I'm demanding that you leave us the h@ll alone and let us practice our choice of religion just as the 1st Ammendment allows.

The thing that galls me most about neo-libs is their insistence on demanding that every one agree with them. For example, I think that homosexuality is unnatural and weird therefore I'm labled as hateful and intolerant. Notice that all I did was form a belief that two guys blowing each other is weird. I don't hassle homosexuals. I just leave them the h@ll alone because I don't want to be around them. They on the other hand insist that I not only accept their lifestyle and codify it but that I must also have my children exposed to it so that they will also be culturally enlightened. BS. By forcing my hand the neo-libs attempts to demand my acquiesence will backfire. That's why there is a recent resurgance in the conservative movement.

Some conservatives are just as bad as the neo-libs that I'm railing about. They too are h@ll bent on imposing their ideas on unwilling liberal folks that also just want to be left alone. Live and let live I say. I won't impose my ideas on you if you don't try to make me live yours. Anything the government does should allow differing ideas to coexist without undue restrictions on either side. That doesn't mean there aren't limits, but as of right now we are collectively governing from far too left of center.

But besides all this stuff congrats on the DC-6 type. Frankly I'm a bit envious. Any knucklehead can get the opportunity to fly an RJ but a DC-6, now that's cool.

 

[mar]

You're my kind of conservative

First, thanks for the congrats.

Second, "Live and let live," yes, life is better that way.

I believe you're not the type of Christian to come knocking on my door and neither am I the type of goddless-commie to stop your kids from practicing during school.

But I do believe that multi-culturalism and diversity (two words that have become almost cliche as of late) are critical elements in the social development of an adolescent.

I believe one of the true elements of liberalism is inclusiveness--not division or oppression.

So.

Homosexuals teaching your children that some kids have two moms pisses you off because you consider homosexuality "unnatural and weird."

I can understand that. But hear this Caveman: Do you remember when you were in college or in the service and you met a kid who was away from home for the very first time. And it was starkly obvious that he had been sheltered and protected until he left the security of his parent's nest. That kid probably had problems adjusting to new situations and relating to different kinds of people.

The point I'm trying to make is that the world is not like Happy Days or Lavernne and Shirley, you know?

There are muslim fanatics.
And gay ACT UP activists.
And environmental monkey-wrenchers.
And shady, duplicitous business men.
And lying, self-serving politicians.
And men in robes that would commit the most unspeakable acts on the most innocent of children.

You musn't hide your children from what seems distasteful to you because you're not protecting them from anything. In time they'll be in the world and have to deal with these challenges all on their own. You can either hide them from it and let them learn on their own *or* you can be there when they come home from school and ask the most surprising question...

Peace man.

 

[Timebuilder]

I agree that you should have some kind of an answer when your kid comes home and asks about said "ring."

I do NOT think that question should have come from a faculty-led class discussion of adult toys and appliances.

Liberals often think that's okay.

I don't.

 

[Snakum]

Nothing will ever be honestly addressed until people can start attacking ISSUES rather than assigning BLAME.

A couple people here should have this tattooed on their foreheads, in reverse, so when they look in the mirrow they'll get a clue.

Well said ...

Minh "Centrist/Realist" Thong

 

[mar]

Timebuilder, toys and appliances

PLEASE!!

Do you ever read what you write??

You can't be serious!! You know, liberals have kids too.

Or maybe you think all these liberal families just sit around and smoke weed after indulging some freaky incestuous orgy.

C'mon Timebuilder....at least *try* to be reasonable for ONCE!!

Ok, let me guess your retort: Joycelynn Elders got fired by Clinton (of all people) for asserting masturbation should be taught as an alternative to sex.

If I have mis-interpreted Dr. Elder's words I apologize to her but I think that was the general idea.

Now. What is so radical about that anyway? As I said above, certain activities are a fact of life. You can either discuss them in a non-judgemental environment or you can sweep them under the rug and let them fester.

Snakum:

 

[Timebuilder]

In the criminal justice system, a search for the responsible party is considered fundamental to "justice." This is simply a part of taking a logical approach to problem solving.

This is not the same as assigning "blame." Often these ideas mistakenly become interchangeable in the minds of people.

When you can identify the genesis of failed ideas, and see a consistent trend of failed ideas in general, and the philosophies behind ideas which are the antithesis of basic American values in particular, then you have a far better chance of improving your society by becoming adept at recognizing and eliminating these same failed ideas.

That is not done for the purpose of finding "blame," but for the purpose of preventing further erosion of our culture and society.

In other words, restoring sanity and accountability rather than a victim mentality.

 

[Timebuilder]

Now. What is so radical about that anyway? As I said above, certain activities are a fact of life.

There is no credible reason that masturbation be taught in school.

I can't believe you raised Elders as some example of cogent liberal thought. She is a loon.

 

[mar]

The Last American Victim...

...is the Average White Male.

And his whining is just as pathetic as any.

TB--we ain't talking criminal justice. We're talking politics.

Your tangents and diatribes tax my patience.

I'm out before I blow another gasket and end up making another apology.

AAaaarrrrgghhhh...

 

[Timebuilder]

Re: The Last American Victim...

...is the Average White Male.

And his whining is just as pathetic as any.

TB--we ain't talking criminal justice. We're talking politics.

Your tangents and diatribes tax my patience.

I'm out before I blow another gasket and end up making another apology.

AAaaarrrrgghhhh...

I have never said I am any kind of victim. That's number one.

Number two is: the logical approach of the criminal justice system is dictated by law. Law created by representatives of the people, elected to their posts as defenders of our freedom, our way of life, and our values as a country. In evaluting policies, the logical approach of the criminal justice system of evidence and actors is well suited to political discussions.

In any discussion of politics, we need to identify and address what is positive and what is negative. Now, more than ever, these ideas are being discussed actively by the American people. Folks are no longer willing to abide by the pronouncements of the Dan Rathers, the Peter Jennings, the Courics, or the CNN's. They are identifying the problems, and looking at those who have been proponents of those problems.

Nothing could be more "American" than that, my friend.