Power-On Stalls

[Joshrk22]

Okay I'm a 32 hour pilot now and I know I should have this down but I have a question. I did power-on stalls in my 3rd lesson and didn't have any trouble with them.

Last night I did a solo flight and I went to 6,500 feet to do some stalls and steep turns to get my ready for my checkride (I only have my solo x-c left).

I'm in a 182T so I pulled the power back a little bit so I'm not standing on the tail when it stalls. I pull it back about 20 degrees and it stalls, the nose drops, but so does a wing. I did spins in my last lesson so I know what a spin is and how to get in and out of one.

Every time I did it the right wing dropped and the plane rolled into a 30-40 degree bank. I tried to do my best with keeping the ball centered but it was swinging way out to the right. The only way I could stay within +/-5 of my heading was to use right rudder and opposite aileron. The only problem with this is you are crossing the controls while you are stalled which could put you into a spin.

So I did about 8-9 that way, well I got back home and opened up books and read online that what I was doing was incredibly wrong. Using opposite aileron actually makes the stall worse.

So my question is, if the ball is swinging way out to the right and the right wing is dropping, won't me stepping on the right rudder only increase the bank further and make the roll worse?

My instructor is at Oshkosh and I can't get back up with him until this weekend. I'm planning to do another flight Thursday and I want to do these properly. Like I said, I've done them before and had no problems with them, I've just got into the habit of using aileron to pick up a dropped wing.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Power-on stalls will require a greater amount of right rudder compared to a power-off stall. The plane you're flying has a pretty strong engine compared to most trainers. This will produce more pronounced left-turning tendencies which require a greater effort on the rudder pedals.

The right wing might be dropping because you're holding in too much right rudder at the stall or not releasing it in time. Don't focus too much inside at the inclinometer. Instead, just focus on the nose of the plane and keeping it straight with the rudder.

I've seen inclinometers hang incorrectly in their case. Best to just set the heading bug, find a point outside and maintain directional control by use of the rudder. If you manage to do this, i assure you the ball *should" be centered and you won't need any aileron at all.

The aileron shouldn't be used during stalls as it can exacerbate the stall when the wing drops.

Let's say the right wing drops and you use left aileron. The right aileron will deflect downward, increasing the wings (already high) angle of attack and subsequent drag. This drag is what will FURTHER pull the wing down into a deeper stall/spin.

 

[sqwkvfr]

^^^^^Beat me to it.

 

[Joshrk22]

Thanks ARF, I will give it a try next time.

 

[Joshrk22]

Well it seems like the best thing to do is keep your eyes outside. When you are doing a power-on stall sometimes the nose comes up to 30 degrees. What references do you use when the nose is up that high?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Well it seems like the best thing to do is keep your eyes outside. When you are doing a power-on stall sometimes the nose comes up to 30 degrees. What references do you use when the nose is up that high?

Its been a while, but I believe the PTS allows for 65% or 75% of full power during the maneuver. This is as you stated, to prevent the nose from becoming abnormally high.

The nose will surely be higher in a power-on, but it need not be 30 degrees. That seems pretty steep. If the pitch is too high, you might be pulling up way too quickly. Try increasing pitch a little slower so that the airspeed has a chance to bleed off.

As I said before, you're gonna botch the manuever if you focus too much on the heading indicator and inclinometer. Keep your eyes outside and watch the nose. This should be a pitch and rudder exercise essentially. Pitch up steadily, and progressively increase the right rudder as the airspeed decreases. Just use enough rudder to keep the nose centered thoroughout the entry and recovery. Once you're stabilized, you'll be plesantly surprised at how well you kept the heading straight.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

(Forgot to address one aspect of your post.)

Well it seems like the best thing to do is keep your eyes outside. When you are doing a power-on stall sometimes the nose comes up to 30 degrees. What references do you use when the nose is up that high?

I realize that sometimes the high pitch attitude obscures your reference point.

You can still maintain your heading by just looking at the nose cowling without a ground point ahead. Using peripheral points as you begin to raise the nose helps too. Next time you're out practicing these things, try watching the nose more closely and you'll see that you will be able to detect any directional deviation simply by observing what the nose is doing. Follow the rivets on the nose cowling and keep them straight.

 

[Joshrk22]

Thanks Amish

 

[pgcfii2002]

Remember right rudder.

Also, per PTS I think you need a minimum of 65% power for the stall. I typically have my students do it around 2000 RPM in a C152 so we don't pitch up as much.

 

[Kenny]

Well it seems like the best thing to do is keep your eyes outside.

That is the best advice you'll be given for maintaining coordination in any stall. Remember, it sounds obvious but it's a visual maneuver so don't look at the "ball", look outside. The nose, relative to a visual reference point will tell you what the ball would.

I always told my students to use a cloud as their reference point when doing power on stalls. Also, pitch up at the same rate you would on rotation. Too many times I flew with students that would pitch up at an excessive rate and not only would things happen a lot quicker but any wing drop would be a lot more pronounced.

 

[AC560]

Its been a while, but I believe the PTS allows for 65% or 75% of full power during the maneuver. This is as you stated, to prevent the nose from becoming abnormally high.

PTS is 65% but they now state "In some high performance airplanes, the power setting may have to be reduced below the practical test standards guideline power setting to prevent excessively high pitch attitudes (greater than 30° nose up)."

Full power on stall in a AC560 is 29mph, would definitely be an E-Ticket ride doing one (an probably a one way ride).

 

[Joshrk22]

When it says 65%, does it mean 65% of the maximum RPM? So on the 182 max RPM is 2,700. So I should do them around 1,800 RPM?

That means the rudder usage will be less and the wing shouldn't drop as much. So it's probably a lot easier to do it that way.

 

[AC560]

When it says 65%, does it mean 65% of the maximum RPM?

65% of available power.

So it's probably a lot easier to do it that way.

Probably true but the purpose is to handle departure stalls so unless you regularly plan on taking off at 65% or less power you might want to be able to cope. Amish gave some good advice on how to master the maneuver, try working through that in conjunction with your instructor. You will get more satisfaction and be a better pilot.

 

[svcta]

Probably true but the purpose is to handle departure stalls so unless you regularly plan on taking off at 65% or less power you might want to be able to cope.

Yeah, but I'd venture to guess that stalling a 182 at takeoff power would be difficult, even intentionally.

To the original poster. Stick to the 65% for purposes of demonstration and practice. (Regarding that power setting: Consult the POH. With a constant speed prop your power setting will be a funtion of both MP and RPM, not just RPM.) You will at least develop an understanding of how to recognize what the airplane will do as it approaches a stall at a high power setting. That's the spirit of the thing. And as far as technique, there's been good advice so far. The best of which is to take your time. A 182 while, as said, having more power than a conventional trainer, also has more mass. Therefore you'll need to allow it to bleed off energy for a little longer as you slowly increase the pitch angle. Let it settle in as you enter the maneuver and you'll see more manageable pitch attitudes, too.

 

[AC560]

Yeah, but I'd venture to guess that stalling a 182 at takeoff power would be difficult, even intentionally.

And anyone who did probably wouldn't be smart enough to recover it in any case. I wasn't implying that the original poster should shove the power in and pull the nose up 90 degrees. My intent was more focus on some of the things Amish posted and at 65%+ power you are going to find it to be a non event.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Remember right rudder.

Also, per PTS I think you need a minimum of 65% power for the stall. I typically have my students do it around 2000 RPM in a C152 so we don't pitch up as much.

If you need to go less than full takeoff/departure power to induce a takeoff/departure stall in a 152 at a reasonable "too high" pitch, I think you're doing something wrong. Most common thing I see is entering the maneuver at too high an airspeed.

 

[nosehair]

Ahh, I love this one. Especially in a higher powered airplane where it is more pronounced.

The big common error, which is not taught or dicussed in most flight training material that I know of, is that you cannot "keep the ball centered" in a straight climb.

Because of "P-Factor", the propeller thrust moves to the right side of the prop, causing the nose to turn left.

Now, what follows may not be exactly aerodynamically correct, but the bottom line is, you cannot hold a constant heading with the wings level and the ball centered when you have P-Factor.

You push right rudder to hold a heading, but that adds drag to the right side and decreases lift so the right wing comes down, so you add left aileron to hold the wings level. This crosses the controls, but is not a cross-control situation that will result in a spin.

The necessary component to a spin is yaw.

The nose must be yawing, either too much or not enough rudder to keep the nose constantly straight. If the nose is pointed straight and not allowed to yaw, a spin will not result no matter how much the controls are crossed.

One of the purposes of stall traing is to learn to hold a constantly straight heading throughout the entry and recovery of the stall - no matter where the ball is. Just like a landing. You keep the nose pointed straight down the center line with rudder and hold the wings level with the aileron. Period. You don't give a whit about the ball.

That's how you should stall.

 

[svcta]

If the nose is pointed straight and not allowed to yaw, a spin will not result no matter how much the controls are crossed.

You sure you want to stick to that? The only reason we use rudder to induce a spin is because it's the easiest way to do it. What you need is a stalled wing and one side more so than the other. By kicking the rudder(yawing the airplane) you accelerate one wing through the air and increase its airspeed while decreasing the other wings airspeed. Sort of like retreating blade stall in a helo.

If you utilize a little theory, you can see how having the ailerons in play in a stalled situation will increase one wing's angle of attack while reducing the other's, resulting in having one wing further stalled than the other. Especially as one wing begins to fall, you try to counter that with aileron and the stall on that wing is further developed. I would actually contend that as one wing falls of, you should only counter that with yaw. By yawing the airplane in the direction you need to roll to bring the low wing up, you're restoring a little airspeed to that side, therefore balancing the stall out over the entire wing again. Theoretically, yaw could prevent a spin, whereas aileron will only aid one.

Now again, in the trainers that we're talking about, we have to impart a yaw on the airplane(usually) to force it to spin(to accelerate one wing and decelerate the other). But this is NOT the case in every airplane.

 

[Joshrk22]

Nosehair,

Are you saying it's okay to cross the controls in the stall to keep it on heading? That's what I was doing and it worked fine. But everywhere I've read it says not to do that.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Technically, as Nosehair indicated, a power-on stall in a single-engine airplane is aerodynamically similar to an asymetric (engine out) stall on a twin. In other words, "ball in the center" doesn't have the airplane's flight path in line with its longitudinal axis. If you stall the airplane with wings level and ball centered, the right wing SHOULD drop.

The way to get the airplane to stall straight ahead is with a slight bank to the right (just like "into the good engine" on a twin) with the ball slightly out to the right.

Sparky Imeson explains it much more clearly than I do in "Taildragger Tactics", a book I recommend whether you fly taildraggers or not

Fly safe!

David