Possible SWA T.A. pay numbers... Embrace the suck.

[madjack]

"Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results." I am sorry for you and your family that you were furloughed. But I was just saying that what has been standard procedure for most airlines (hire to you furlough) has not been the case at SWA...it seems that management at SWA has a longer view when it comes to sustainability...I understand mgmt when they seek to "low ball" us in negotiations and seek what we view as concessionary changes to work rules and pay rates...hey that's their job...but by not settling with us 2 years ago, they screwed up and they know it...the current negotiating environment favors labor, perhaps as it never has before... DL mgmt misjudged, and our FAs will probably vote down their TA...the stage is set for real gains in this contract if we remain unified...

 

[maru657]

I'd like to point out to PCL and Lear70, you may be arguing a moot point. SWAPA and DALPA can never afford to strike. At least not during your career paths. After the debacle of the 80's and the flagrant disregard of PATCO's pickett lines any attempt by either group to strike would wind up in failure. And frankly, why should some kid from the regionals respect their efforts knowing that without the right "squadron creds" he or she would never be hired there anyway. It is interesting to see how far they'll take it though.

 

[Skybus]

Wow. And you "gentleman" have people trust their lives to you......?

 

[HA25]

Air force has nothing to do with the military.

a truer statement was never made on FI.com

 

[calfo]

89-90 ca hours a month @ united = about $20K with 15 days off.

 

[HA25]

89-90 ca hours a month @ united = about $20K with 15 days off.

you saying at UAL you're crediting 90 hours with 15 days off on narrow bodies? really? or you just making that up? How much flight time is that typically?

 

[Ex737Driver]

you saying at UAL you're crediting 90 hours with 15 days off on narrow bodies? really? or you just making that up? How much flight time is that typically?

Yep add some per diem and some INTL override and 90 hours will get you $20K+ before taxes for 737 and 320 captains.

 

[Flopgut]

you saying at UAL you're crediting 90 hours with 15 days off on narrow bodies? really? or you just making that up? How much flight time is that typically?

It can be done on reserve as well. VDO your last day off 3 times a month into a productive trip.

 

[Clyde Frog]

When you're negotiating from a position of weakness, you get what you're given. No leverage = $h!+ contract.

I love the guys that talk about the 150TFP/month...premium time...and in the next breath start talking smack about what they'll accept as retro. GMAFB. this place has "cartels" who's goal is to steal trips from fellow pilots. If this was any other airline these hoars would be ostracized...their names would be on a list...at SW they're considered heros.

I'll vote in favor of the first halfway reasonable offer to come along...for 3 reasons.

1. If I've learned anything from the AT integration, it's this...if you try to negotiate with no leverage, this management will screw you hard and deep and do it with a smile.
2. This pilot group is a clueless and greedy bunch of narcissistic sheeple who don't have a clue how labor/management negotiations are supposed to work.
3. I hate SWAPA.

 

[HowardBorden]

I'll vote in favor of the first halfway reasonable offer to come along...for 3 reasons.

1. If I've learned anything from the AT integration, it's this...if you try to negotiate with no leverage, this management will screw you hard and deep and do it with a smile.
2. This pilot group is a clueless and greedy bunch of narcissistic sheeple who don't have a clue how labor/management negotiations are supposed to work.
3. I hate SWAPA.

Self-fulfilling prophecy

A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Self-fulfilling prophecy

A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior.

Gotta love the Frog--he's nothing if not predictable.

Bubba

 

[-9Capt]

hey Frog, are you wearing your dark tie? 'Cause our union leadership says that's an effective negotiating tactic and it'll get us a contract!

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Gotta love the Frog--he's nothing if not predictable.

Bubba

Frog seems to get it, SWAPA has little to no leverage. The 800's, no international override, no bonus in 2012, no crew meals, and whatever else they gave away to keep Gary in their hip pocket during integration negotiations has already been paid for. To think the company owes anything at this point is folly.

I'll still vote no as I've never voted yes on anything yet, but there is a lot of fatigue and guys are just tired and ready to be done. It's ironic that anyone would be counting on any FAT votes against a less than stellar CBA, as the majority don't give a crap anymore and know the enemy as well as the lack of fortitude of their "brothers" and might as well expedite the inevitable and move on.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Frog seems to get it, SWAPA has little to no leverage. The 800's, no international override, no bonus in 2012, no crew meals, and whatever else they gave away to keep Gary in their hip pocket during integration negotiations has already been paid for. To think the company owes anything at this point is folly.

No. Frog does not "get it." This has absolutely nothing to do with "getting it."

His posts and attitude demonstrate that Frog couldn't give the first crap about what leverage SWAPA may or not have. He doesn't care how well our union does or does not work, nor does he care about how things work between the company and the pilots. He and a few others (most notably Fred and -9Capt, but also yourself, to a lesser extent) care only about slamming SWAPA and SWA every chance they get. There could be a thread about Delta or United (or the friggin' weather, for that matter), and one or more of them would find some way to work in a few "SWAPA sucks" comments. Their hatred and bitterness drive every word they post on this forum. That's the reality of those guys.

And it's not like it isn't obvious to everyone else who's reading. I kinda' feel sorry for them, actually.

Bubba

 

[HowardBorden]

It's ironic that anyone would be counting on any FAT votes against a less than stellar CBA

One would think they would look out for their own best interest........nothing more nothing less!

If FAT pilots somehow think they are going to harm anyone but themselves by voting yes to an inferior deal, that is in fact steeped in irony.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Frog seems to get it, SWAPA has little to no leverage. The 800's, no international override, no bonus in 2012, no crew meals, and whatever else they gave away to keep Gary in their hip pocket during integration negotiations has already been paid for. To think the company owes anything at this point is folly.

I'll still vote no as I've never voted yes on anything yet, but there is a lot of fatigue and guys are just tired and ready to be done. It's ironic that anyone would be counting on any FAT votes against a less than stellar CBA, as the majority don't give a crap anymore and know the enemy as well as the lack of fortitude of their "brothers" and might as well expedite the inevitable and move on.

RSW pilots traded -800 pay, crew meals, Int'l, etc for the threats Gary made to keep the integration out of arbitration. Anyone involved knows this to be true but few seem willing to admit it.

 

[HowardBorden]

RSW pilots traded -800 pay, crew meals, Int'l, etc for the threats Gary made to keep the integration out of arbitration.

The ONLY folks that had the ability to keep the integration out of arbitration were the 83% of pilots that voted for the offer on the table.

 

[Clyde Frog]

The ONLY folks that had the ability to keep the integration out of arbitration were the 83% of pilots that voted for the offer on the table.

A gross oversimplification from an obvious simpleton.

 

[Clyde Frog]

His posts and attitude demonstrate that Frog couldn't give the first crap about what leverage SWAPA may or not have. He doesn't care how well our union does or does not work, nor does he care about how things work between the company and the pilots. He and a few others (most notably Fred and -9Capt, but also yourself, to a lesser extent) care only about slamming SWAPA and SWA every chance they get.

Hmm...I wonder why that is?
You can't whip your dick out and slap me across the face with it and expect me to act like I love SW and SWAPA. I don't. I never will and I'm not alone. When your SWAPA and management colluded to screw over the FATs, this is what you get...a disgruntled bunch of malcontents

 

[madjack]

Can't fix stupid

 

[HowardBorden]

A gross oversimplification from an obvious simpleton.

Ah yes, when you can't refute the facts put forth, move on to the next best thing.

 

[bluesideup1]

RSW pilots traded -800 pay, crew meals, Int'l, etc for the threats Gary made to keep the integration out of arbitration. Anyone involved knows this to be true but few seem willing to admit it.

Just to show you how clueless you are:

First the 800 was voted upon before the announcement of the purchase of airtran.

Crew Meals were brought up when flying a turn and we couldn't get off the aircraft for international flights.

The international flights didn't happen at SW until well after the vote for integration.

All three had absolutely nothing to do with the integration vote on airtran as those things either happened well before or well after the vote. Although it seems to you that everything has to do with the integration. Get over yourself we have bigger fish to fry.

How about this: Its done! Move on!

 

[-9Capt]

Just to show you how clueless you are:

First the 800 was voted upon before the announcement of the purchase of airtran.

Crew Meals were brought up when flying a turn and we couldn't get off the aircraft for international flights.

The international flights didn't happen at SW until well after the vote for integration.

All three had absolutely nothing to do with the integration vote on airtran as those things either happened well before or well after the vote. Although it seems to you that everything has to do with the integration. Get over yourself we have bigger fish to fry.

How about this: Its done! Move on!

You're either lying or you're stupid.

Go read SL6. It's on the SWAPA website. The very same agreement that talks about -800 pay and international flying mentions the AirTran integration. It's right there in black and white smart guy.

I'll be happy to post it for all to read if you prefer.

 

[-9Capt]

The ONLY folks that had the ability to keep the integration out of arbitration were the 83% of pilots that voted for the offer on the table.

So the threats by management of a "plan B" and an "alternate plan" had no influence on how the AirTran pilots voted? It didn't change the outcome. Is that what you're saying?

-----------------------------------------

By Ben Mutzabaugh, USA TODAY

Updated: 10/12/2011 9:55 PM

- UPDATED: 2:28 p.m. ET

Southwest may have an "alternate plan" for AirTran if pilots at the latter vote against a deal to combine seniority lists with their Southwest counterparts.

That's according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, where reporter Kelly Yamanouchi writes:

In an effort to encourage pilots to approve the deal, Southwest has raised the possibility of a Plan B: that AirTran may not fully integrate as planned into Southwest if the pilot proposal fails.

"If we receive a 'no' vote, it means that we cannot execute the original integration plan and we will have to reset," Southwest spokesman Paul Flaningan says in a written statement to the Journal-Constitution.

The newspaper writes the prospect of a Plan B "came up shortly after AirTran's pilots union leadership voted against an initial deal ? ."

In that situation, Southwest CEO Gary Kelly expressed disappointment that the tentative deal on seniority was never put to AirTran's union membership for a vote.

For now, Southwest says it's continuing to integrate AirTran's operations.

But things might look different if Southwest does eventually resort to the newly reported alternate plan.

In that scenario -- which at least one analyst suspects is a negotiating ploy -- Southwest would continue to operate subsidiary AirTran as a separate operation , a move that would still give it access to AirTran's fleet, Atlanta hub and its international routes

But the Journal-Constitution reports such a plan could also set the stage for a "slow dismantling" of AirTran, perhaps similar to how Southwest handled its acquisition of now-defunct Muse Air in the 1980s.

When asked specifically about that passage, Southwest spokeswoman Beth Harbin told Today in the Sky:

I know there has been a lot of speculation. It's natural, I guess, during a time when a potential agreement is introduced, people are reading their way through it, and making conclusions. The Muse Air acquisition was 30 years ago. It was an approach. Not the only approach. We believe Pilots today have a fair offer to consider and are optimistic they will approve it.

Bloomberg News also picks up on the story, writing "keeping AirTran flying on its own would run counter to the goal of folding the discount carrier into Southwest, the biggest low-fare airline."

"I''m sure that's not what management planned when they acquired AirTran," Hunter Keay, an analyst at Wolfe Trahan & Co. in New York, says to Bloomberg. "It probably is to some degree a negotiating tactic."

The Bloomberg report makes no mention any possible dismantling of AirTran. Referencing the same summary cited by the Journal-Constitution, Bloomberg quotes Southwest as saying simply "Plan B calls for AAI (AirTran) and SWA (Southwest) to remain separate and unintegrated."

As for the background of the AirTran pilots' seniority issue, the Journal-Constitution says some AirTran pilots believe going to arbitration could net them a better deal.

Others, however, appear to be frustrated -- as evidenced by a Tuesday move to recall three union leaders amid what the Journal-Constitution writes is "discontent over the union leadership decision to decline the first offer."

As for Southwest, spokeswoman Beth Harbin tells Bloomberg: "Our focus is going to be on getting the deal with the pilots done quickly because that really does set a good momentum for the rest of the integration."

 

[madjack]

-9....
What better outcome were u expecting/feel u deserved...DOH?? Just curious...

 

[redflyer65]

DOH from AirTran to SW? Yea, that wasn't going to work.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

That's a potential land mine in a rumored jetBlue merger. The company is only... what... 14 years old? Their most senior capt has 14 years seniority.

 

[PCL_128]

DOH from AirTran to SW? Yea, that wasn't going to work.

Agreed. Ratio by category and status would have been the arbitrated outcome.

 

[Flopgut]

I remember that letter. I wished the AirTran guys had doubled down, but respect that it was their decision and their reality. I don't know where AirTran belonged on an SLI per say, but we all know now how bad SWA needed them. AirTran has been absolutely crucial to SWA. Lesson learned from ATA, where they were only savvy enough to weasel market info on Chicago Midway. There was a lot more to learn there if SWA had been smart enough to receive it. AND could have lingered long enough without the SWA pilots' feelings getting hurt [not special].

 

[-9Capt]

DOH from AirTran to SW? Yea, that wasn't going to work.

That's not something we'll likely agree upon. That was a decision for an arbitrator to make, except your side decided to be Scumbbags about it. Congrats, you won. Enjoy the seniority and capt seats.