Possible SWA T.A. pay numbers... Embrace the suck.

[HowardBorden]

As for the 8% and 7%, that's ASM growth through the retirements of the classics and bringing on -800's and longer stage lengths. Gary has been pretty clear on no hull growth. You'd think if there was going to be any, he'd use it as a carrot, but he's been pretty clear on flat fleet "growth".

That is incorrect. GK has in fact stated that there will be hull growth in '16.

Southwest Airlines CEO, chairman and president Gary Kelly stated (13-May-2015) the carrier has designated its Boeing firm orders in 2016 as 737-800s rather than 737-700s, which will increase its 737-800 fleet to 135 aircraft by the end of 2016. Southwest plans to grow its total fleet by 2% in 2016 year-over-year, according to Mr Kelly, although a "significant number of planned retirements" will bring its fleet to roughly 715 aircraft by YE2016. The carrier intends to take delivery of 19 pre-owned 737-700 aircraft in 2015, and four pre-owned 737-700 aircraft in 2016. Southwest's firm aircraft capital commitments are estimated to be approximately USD1.1 billion for 2015, and in the USD1.3 billion to USD1.4 billion range for 2016. The carrier estimates total capital expenditures will be approximately USD1.8 billion in 2015.

http://www.oag.com/Industry-News/so...gnates-firm-orders-737-800s-grow-fleet-2-2016

 

[flyingitalian]

I just flew a trip with a former AirTran pilot. He carries a snapshot of his last year CA pay at AAI as his login screen on his iPad. $230k.

You mean the contract they got when Uncle Gary bought AirTran, because you know under Fornano that was a pipe dream. 7 years of negotiation and you were not anywhere close, mostly because he didn't have it to give you. What did he make under Fornaro?

 

[GoodTimes]

"Not quite, but funny...

I just flew a trip with a former AirTran pilot. He carries a snapshot of his last year CA pay at AAI as his login screen on his iPad. $230k. When he came over as an F/O, he lost quite a bit of money, even trying to play the Premium Time game. For 2 years."






Pay cut over the course of a career, or a pay cut for a couple of years?

 

[gt1900]

You mean the contract they got when Uncle Gary bought AirTran, because you know under Fornano that was a pipe dream. 7 years of negotiation and you were not anywhere close, mostly because he didn't have it to give you. What did he make under Fornaro?

AAI turned down very similar pay rates in 2006 that Fornaro offered up, so it wasn't a "pipe dream". But we've been over this a million times.

 

[PCL_128]

Pay cut over the course of a career, or a pay cut for a couple of years?

"Over the course of a career" is all theoretical. It's impossible to know what his career earnings would have ended up being at AirTran, and it's all guesswork about what the years will bring ahead at SWA. The only thing that matters is real numbers, and they took pay cuts for those real years.

 

[Lear70]

AAI turned down very similar pay rates in 2006 that Fornaro offered up, so it wasn't a "pipe dream". But we've been over this a million times.

Yep, and I'm not interested in the debate. Moving on.

"Over the course of a career" is all theoretical. It's impossible to know what his career earnings would have ended up being at AirTran, and it's all guesswork about what the years will bring ahead at SWA. The only thing that matters is real numbers, and they took pay cuts for those real years.

Yup.

He'll make it back over the next two years now that he has upgraded (at 40, he was one of our youngest Captains and now he has 25 years in the left seat - most of our Captains that have upgraded are in their late 50's). I'd have upgraded by now at AAI with planned deliveries and retirements (many of which were already firmed up), so instead of being a junior F/O here I'd have been a junior CA there and won't make a single dime more (likely will even lose money compared to AAI CA) over the next 8-10 years until I can upgrade.

Just the way airline life works. Praying to God we don't buy another airline unless it's a pre-engineered job like Frontier.

That is incorrect. GK has in fact stated that there will be hull growth in '16.

Southwest Airlines CEO, chairman and president Gary Kelly stated (13-May-2015) the carrier has designated its Boeing firm orders in 2016 as 737-800s rather than 737-700s, which will increase its 737-800 fleet to 135 aircraft by the end of 2016. Southwest plans to grow its total fleet by 2% in 2016 year-over-year, according to Mr Kelly, although a "significant number of planned retirements" will bring its fleet to roughly 715 aircraft by YE2016. The carrier intends to take delivery of 19 pre-owned 737-700 aircraft in 2015, and four pre-owned 737-700 aircraft in 2016. Southwest's firm aircraft capital commitments are estimated to be approximately USD1.1 billion for 2015, and in the USD1.3 billion to USD1.4 billion range for 2016. The carrier estimates total capital expenditures will be approximately USD1.8 billion in 2015.

http://www.oag.com/Industry-News/sou...w-fleet-2-2016

So 715 Aircraft total by the end of next year.

How many airplanes did both carriers have combined pre-merger?

So much growth, it's amazing! :/

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

No, the ones that were snapshotted yesterday from the SWAPA site when the IT people made an error and accidentally posted the calculator to the negotiations tab on the main page.

I've got a few pics.

 

[StarrBuck]

Rich,

The current TFP conversion factor for TFP -> Hourly pay is not 1.167.. It is 1.149. Not sure where you came up with 1.167.. 10 years ago we used 1.13.. I'm not sure to be honest why it crept up to 1.149. Of course that whole conversion issue is debatable as we don't know what American acutally pays per "block hour flown"..

I agree with you regarding the COLA adjustments. We should be able to negotiate 3 percent minimum in 13/14/15 for COLA alone. That would put us ahead of American today, but I don't feel we should need to give up section 1 to get COLA adjustments.

3/3/3 puts 11 dollars per hour more than american today..

 

[Ty Webb]

You mean the contract they got when Uncle Gary bought AirTran, because you know under Fornano that was a pipe dream. 7 years of negotiation and you were not anywhere close, mostly because he didn't have it to give you. What did he make under Fornaro?

Thats one way to look at it, I guess. . .

The other way would be that we wiped our asses with those numbers when they were presented to us in a TA years before.

Maybe you'll get the chance to do the same.

 

[HowardBorden]

So 715 Aircraft total by the end of next year.

How many airplanes did both carriers have combined pre-merger?

So much growth, it's amazing! :/

Pre-merger totals were 682 airframes. Is it monstrous growth, obviously not, but your statement: "Gary has been pretty clear on no hull growth." is demonstrably false.

http://centreforaviation.com/analys...an-merger-atlanta-and-revenue-the-story-36123

 

[Lear70]

Pre-merger totals were 682 airframes. Is it monstrous growth, obviously not, but your statement: "Gary has been pretty clear on no hull growth." is demonstrably false.

http://centreforaviation.com/analys...an-merger-atlanta-and-revenue-the-story-36123

So 4% growth in 5 years. Excellent. That's <1% per year.

Again, a LOT of people on the F/O list here are looking at 15-20 year upgrades, especially those <90% on the seniority list. Period. Mine alone will be 8 years from now, minimum, while approaching 10 years' longevity.

Oh, and that's with 1% growth yearly. Every year. But hey, if we can get 4% per year EVERY year, for the next 5 years, I'll be the first on here cheering thr growth along. Until then I can't get really excited about one year out of the last 5 growing 4.x%. That's the difference between holding weekends off in Denver versus Vegas. 2 years from now.

 

[Lear70]

Rich,

The current TFP conversion factor for TFP -> Hourly pay is not 1.167.. It is 1.149. Not sure where you came up with 1.167.. 10 years ago we used 1.13.. I'm not sure to be honest why it crept up to 1.149. Of course that whole conversion issue is debatable as we don't know what American acutally pays per "block hour flown"..

I agree with you regarding the COLA adjustments. We should be able to negotiate 3 percent minimum in 13/14/15 for COLA alone. That would put us ahead of American today, but I don't feel we should need to give up section 1 to get COLA adjustments.

3/3/3 puts 11 dollars per hour more than american today..

Hell if I know... I think that might have been the sick time conversion rate? It's stuck in my head for some reason, maybe something else entirely.

As for 3/3/3? Maybe with ZERO give-backs elsewhere, matching the other airline's 401k's, and commutable lines. Maybe.

 

[HowardBorden]

So 4% growth in 5 years. Excellent. That's <1% per year.

Again, a LOT of people on the F/O list here are looking at 15-20 year upgrades, especially those <90% on the seniority list. Period. Mine alone will be 8 years from now, minimum, while approaching 10 years' longevity.

Oh, and that's with 1% growth yearly. Every year. But hey, if we can get 4% per year EVERY year, for the next 5 years, I'll be the first on here cheering thr growth along. Until then I can't get really excited about one year out of the last 5 growing 4.x%. That's the difference between holding weekends off in Denver versus Vegas. 2 years from now.

I never claimed it to be blockbuster growth! And trust me, I'm well aware of upgrade times with and without growth. The point was that your original statement was false and misleading. I for one am hoping the exponential explosion on the ROIC front will soon lead to much better hull growth numbers going forward. If you want forecast gloom and doom feel free to do so but there is no need to falsify the information to project that scenario, there is plenty of real life doom and gloom to go around without embellishing it.

 

[Lear70]

I never claimed it to be blockbuster growth! And trust me, I'm well aware of upgrade times with and without growth. The point was that your original statement was false and misleading. I for one am hoping the exponential explosion on the ROIC front will soon lead to much better hull growth numbers going forward. If you want forecast gloom and doom feel free to do so but there is no need to falsify the information to project that scenario, there is plenty of real life doom and gloom to go around without embellishing it.

Wasn't trying to "falsify" anything. Last I heard the "growth" numbers brought us up above pre-merger numbers by only a few hulls; last I read, everyone on the internal board was gnashing their teeth wondering why we were hiring so many people.

I have a tendency to "check out" of the internal board for weeks/months at a time these days (and I'm not on TOB). Hell, I haven't been on here since Rich B died. Too much negativity. I'm already annoyed at our schedules and how much we're gone, so I try to stay off the boards except when something bigger is going on - trying to stay positive and the forums don't help.

Hopefully those numbers are something that got tossed this week at the BoD meeting, if they were ever real numbers to begin with. As I said on the internal board, I just find it odd that such random decimal percentages were used. Knowing how things get set up with IT people, they're usually instructed to use certain numbers, not "just make them up so we can give this demo".

Been down this road before. I don't trust *anybody*. Better to raise the flag of doubt and have a lot of people banging down the BoD's door of "you'd better not put those rates in a T.A." than say nothing and then be mad when that IS what we get.

 

[400ADude]

Yep, and I'm not interested in the debate. Moving on.


Yup.

He'll make it back over the next two years now that he has upgraded (at 40, he was one of our youngest Captains and now he has 25 years in the left seat - most of our Captains that have upgraded are in their late 50's). I'd have upgraded by now at AAI with planned deliveries and retirements (many of which were already firmed up), so instead of being a junior F/O here I'd have been a junior CA there and won't make a single dime more (likely will even lose money compared to AAI CA) over the next 8-10 years until I can upgrade.

Just the way airline life works. Praying to God we don't buy another airline unless it's a pre-engineered job like Frontier.


So 715 Aircraft total by the end of next year.

How many airplanes did both carriers have combined pre-merger?

So much growth, it's amazing! :/

Go get a job at 7 eleven you ******************** bag loser. Glad we didnt have winey, chicken********************s like you in any of the wars our country has fought cause we be done. You're such a sore hairy donught hole loser.