Possible effect of Northwest bankrupty on Mesaba or Pinnacle??

[aviatorman_1979]

What would the effects of a Northwest bankrupty have on either Mesaba or Pinnacle?

 

[ClubORD]

i.e.

Air Wisconsin
Atlantic Coast Airlines

There are plenty of people willing to fly for peanuts these days. I do not know where these carriers fall in the labor cost structure but I would bet a NWA bankruptcy would cause some serious pay/QOL issues there.

 

[PCL_128]

What would the effects of a Northwest bankrupty have on either Mesaba or Pinnacle?

There would be no immediate effect, but problems could come later on. The ASA (Air Service Agreement) that Mesaba and Pinnacle have with NWA could come up during BK. NWA could always get the judge to void the current ASA and Pinnacle and Mesaba would have to renegotiate a new ASA or risk losing the contract to another regional like Mesa or CHQ. I'm not too worried, seeing as how Pinnacle is currently the lowest cost regional in the country (yes, even lower cost than Mesa). Mesaba just got the next few CRJs by agreeing to fly them for a very slim profit margin, so I doubt their contract is in jeopardy either. Basically, bad things could happen, but it's not very likely.

 

[SRMairlines]

I would imagine similar cases to the UAL and US Ch. 11's we've seen. 70 seaters to who can do it the cheapest. Probably a lot more growth opportunities for Mesaba/Pinnacle and possibly someone else. NWA is cut-throat so they will do what they need to survive.

 

[RP170]

There would be no immediate effect, but problems could come later on. The ASA (Air Service Agreement) that Mesaba and Pinnacle have with NWA could come up during BK. NWA could always get the judge to void the current ASA and Pinnacle and Mesaba would have to renegotiate a new ASA or risk losing the contract to another regional like Mesa or CHQ. I'm not too worried, seeing as how Pinnacle is currently the lowest cost regional in the country (yes, even lower cost than Mesa). Mesaba just got the next few CRJs by agreeing to fly them for a very slim profit margin, so I doubt their contract is in jeopardy either. Basically, bad things could happen, but it's not very likely.

Don't count on getting anywhere in your contract negotiations at PCL if NW files.

 

[ERJDRVR2]

Misleading joke... To mess with PCL.

True memo. But 170's in DTW for DL.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,

FYI, CHQ/RP/Shuttle is opening a DTW base effective Sept 1.

Source? Is this guy just full of crap, or can someone else from CHQ confirm?

If it's true, then welcome to DTW. You certainly won't be flying any 170s with a red tail until scope changes, but we'll be happy to have you up here.

 

[DoinTime]

PCL,

FYI, CHQ/RP/Shuttle is opening a DTW base effective Sept 1.

Assuming that this is legit.......So what???

Are you assuming these airplanes will be flown for NWA? If so you are on crack.

 

[KingAirer]

Why do you want to start a war ERJ? You and everyone else knows that flying is not NW flying.

 

[BoilerUP]

The rest of the story

"Special Notice: This bid is for Delta EMB 170 service originating out of Detroit, MI for September 4, 2005 through approximately October 15, 2005. Only those Shuttle America pilots who will be qualified on the EMB 170 by September 1, 2005 will be eligible to bid these openings."

 

[sf3boy]

What would the effects of a Northwest bankrupty have on either Mesaba or Pinnacle?

I would say zero effects for, at least, the pilots. Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots do not work for NWA. We work for the organization that our labor contract is with. My contract states that I receive X for doing my assigned duties with Mesaba, not NWA. If it is proven that I have been working for NWA all this time, someone owes me a lot of cash, vacation, and sick time accrual.

Now, IF the union wants to go and rewrite the contract......

 

[PCL_128]

"Special Notice: This bid is for Delta EMB 170 service originating out of Detroit, MI for September 4, 2005 through approximately October 15, 2005. Only those Shuttle America pilots who will be qualified on the EMB 170 by September 1, 2005 will be eligible to bid these openings."

Delta, huh? Any idea where the flights will be to? Is this some new point-to-point flying, or are they going to the hubs in CVG or ATL?

 

[arthompson]

I don't see there being too much of a change in how things are done if NWA files, primarily because NWA is still our majority stock holder. Since we are no longer "wholely owned" they won't have to force us into bankruptcy with them, and yet we're a great tool for the emergence of a stronger, profitable NWA. Just keep this in mind when you guys are considering a NWA bankruptcy, unlike other airlines to file (UA/US) NWA doesn't have expensive leases on old high operating cost airplanes. Chances are if it's a "classic airliner" NWA owns it out right. There isn't a whole lot of debt for NWA to shed in a Ch11.

Adam

 

[SF340Guy]

The Detroit flying will be DTW to SLC, as per the agreement and schedule with Delta. Source: Shuttle Management.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Just keep this in mind when you guys are considering a NWA bankruptcy, unlike other airlines to file (UA/US) NWA doesn't have expensive leases on old high operating cost airplanes. Chances are if it's a "classic airliner" NWA owns it out right. There isn't a whole lot of debt for NWA to shed in a Ch11.

I wouldn't be quite so sure of that. I have heard that NWA has utilized the equity gained in those aircraft as collateral to secure a sky high credit line. And the $2B in cash that they say they have on hand is mostly just a line of credit. Most of which is secured with those older "paid-off" airframes.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wow! Lot's of airline pilots seem to know alot about airline business besides flying jets. I recall sitting next to two business men who convinced themselves that pilots must, they HAVE to, see the next city ahead in order to navigate.

Instead declaring what will happen to XJ and 9E, why not ask the Air Wisconsin and Indepedence Air pilots what happends to vendors when the primary declares....

 

[FN FAL]

Wow! Lot's of airline pilots seem to know alot about airline business besides flying jets. I recall sitting next to two business men who convinced themselves that pilots must, they HAVE to, see the next city ahead in order to navigate.

Instead declaring what will happen to XJ and 9E, why not ask the Air Wisconsin and Indepedence Air pilots what happends to vendors when the primary declares....

ACA and ASA could join together with Mesaba and Pinnacle, sell a few vowels and start their own national airline like SWA.

 

[kmox29]

Mesaba just got the next few CRJs by agreeing to fly them for a very slim profit margin, so I doubt their contract is in jeopardy either.

C'mon PCL_128. Do you really think a profit margin had ANYTHING to do with XJ getting CRJ's? The fact that you would even cite that as a reason is very troubling in my opinion of 9E pilots. Just where did you get this "very slim profit margin" idea from? Your CEO? A management issued memo? Your above quote reaks with management spewed propaganda. I know you're smarter than that. We here at XJ fully support your negotiations for your contract, but if you're going to believe crap like that, you're in for a ugly road ahead.

Mesaba received CRJ's because Pinnacle is in contract negotiations. Anyone who believes that you or us recieved any aircraft because of our...

1. Operational excellence
2. Contract compensation
3. Management cost controls
4. Airline efficiency

...needs to take a long hard look at the history of Big Brother and his two Red-Headed Step Children.

 

[PCL_128]

C'mon PCL_128. Do you really think a profit margin had ANYTHING to do with XJ getting CRJ's? The fact that you would even cite that as a reason is very troubling in my opinion of 9E pilots. Just where did you get this "very slim profit margin" idea from? Your CEO? A management issued memo? Your above quote reaks with management spewed propaganda. I know you're smarter than that. We here at XJ fully support your negotiations for your contract, but if you're going to believe crap like that, you're in for a ugly road ahead.

Mesaba received CRJ's because Pinnacle is in contract negotiations. Anyone who believes that you or us recieved any aircraft because of our...

1. Operational excellence
2. Contract compensation
3. Management cost controls
4. Airline efficiency

...needs to take a long hard look at the history of Big Brother and his two Red-Headed Step Children.

Of course I don't believe that you got CRJs because of your margins. Believe me, I understand red tail labor tactics enough to understand why you got CRJs. That's not the point of the post however. The point is that NWA would be hard pressed to find a cheaper source for their feed than 9E or XJ. NWA would have a very hard time convincing a BK judge to let them go to a more expensive RJ contractor just so they can expand the whipsaw. They will need to find someone that can provide RJ feed at a lower fee-for-departure than XJ or 9E. That is basically impossible. As I said, even Mesa has higher costs than Pinnacle.

As for my source for your profit margin, it comes from the Association. I doubt Wychor and the rest of your MEC are providing us with fake financial information.

 

[BlackPilot628]

The Detroit flying will be DTW to SLC, as per the agreement and schedule with Delta. Source: Shuttle Management.

The weird thing is that I heard we're baseing 4 airplanes out of DTW. I would think we'll be going to SLC, CVG, and ATL.; maybe even MCO and LGA.

 

[sweptback]

The weird thing is that I heard we're baseing 4 airplanes out of DTW. I would think we'll be going to SLC, CVG, and ATL.; maybe even MCO and LGA.

Four airplanes makes a base at CHQ? What does that work out to be, about 20 lines?

 

[BlackPilot628]

Four airplanes makes a base at CHQ? What does that work out to be, about 20 lines?

It is only Temporary Base. The bid says, "Pilots awarded these vacancies will be temporarily based in DTW from approximately September 4 to October 15." I'm not really sure why they're doing this; as stated above I think it because of an agreement with Delta's Schedule during that time period.
We don't bid lines, we use the Pref Bidding system. (PBS) I'm not sure what the pairings will look like, but it shall be interesting.

 

[surplus1]

Someone would actually "bid" for a new base with a month and a half duration?

You all have must have a very different understanding of what a "base" is than I do.

Are you all going to commute to this new "base"? Where will you live while you're there and who will pay for it? You?

 

[Napoleon TNT]

This was once the motto for a few PNCL pilots...

I dont care about all the negative stuff, it happens at every airline. Im just excited to fly a jet in DTOWN

...now I guess it is the new CHQ banner.

HA!

 

[c-wood75]

Are you all going to commute to this new "base"? Where will you live while you're there and who will pay for it? You?

No. company is paying for hotel and 24 hour full per diem while in DTW. every commuter ive talked to is bidding to get this assingment. If I was a commuter i would be all over this one.

 

[Monster Buck]

Instead declaring what will happen to XJ and 9E, why not ask the Air Wisconsin and Indepedence Air pilots what happends to vendors when the primary declares....

Nothing will happen to Mesaba or Pinnacle, except that they will be used a a whipsaw against NWA pilots if there is a bankruptcy. Air Wis. and FLYI are apples and oranges to the way of things with the Red Tails. All red tails ARE COMPLETLEY CONTROLLED by NWA. We will do Exactly as NWA wants. There will be no breaking away or having NWA use someone else that they do not have complete control over.

It seems everyone likes to say "someone is coming to take your flying" anytime there is any stir up. Contracts are due every day all around this country. Like I have said before, that constant threat in itself between pilots helps to shape the downward spiral attitude that kills our unity to stand up for more. Back door threats, wether they are to spur conversation or bickering are detremental to every pilots carrer. If you keep saying that the sky is going to fall long enough, people will start to believe it, and act. They will not act as a unified group that fights for the better, they will tuck tail and run into a poor pay scale to keep the ENEMY from taking THEIR flying because they feel that is their only option.

 

[PCL_128]

Someone would actually "bid" for a new base with a month and a half duration?

You all have must have a very different understanding of what a "base" is than I do.

Are you all going to commute to this new "base"? Where will you live while you're there and who will pay for it? You?

TDYs (Temporary Duty) are not all that unusual. Pinnacle used them several times this past year. It's a great deal for commuters. I don't know the particulars of the CHQ contract, but a typical TDY section would require a positive space deadhead to the new domicile, 24/7 per diem, and a hotel room.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

The fact that you would even cite that as a reason is very troubling in my opinion of 9E pilots

The fact that you would base your opinion of 9E pilots from a few posts on a message board is troubling.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nothing will happen to Mesaba or Pinnacle, except that they will be used a a whipsaw against NWA pilots if there is a bankruptcy. Air Wis. and FLYI are apples and oranges to the way of things with the Red Tails. All red tails ARE COMPLETLEY CONTROLLED by NWA. We will do Exactly as NWA wants. There will be no breaking away or having NWA use someone else that they do not have complete control over.

It seems everyone likes to say "someone is coming to take your flying" anytime there is any stir up. Contracts are due every day all around this country. Like I have said before, that constant threat in itself between pilots helps to shape the downward spiral attitude that kills our unity to stand up for more. Back door threats, wether they are to spur conversation or bickering are detremental to every pilots carrer. If you keep saying that the sky is going to fall long enough, people will start to believe it, and act. They will not act as a unified group that fights for the better, they will tuck tail and run into a poor pay scale to keep the ENEMY from taking THEIR flying because they feel that is their only option.

Rhetoric... Your mantra evades the question and assumes you know what I am talking about.

When UAL declared they forced the ALPA groups of the vendors into concessionary contracts. NWA doesn't care who's name is comes before dba.

 

[surplus1]

No. company is paying for hotel and 24 hour full per diem while in DTW. every commuter ive talked to is bidding to get this assingment. If I was a commuter i would be all over this one.

Thanks. Now it makes sense. It's not a base, just TDY (temporary duty). Nice gig, except for it being DTW.