Please provide advice to father...

[Rez O. Lewshun]

here is a website from a professional pilot association. (ALPA)

http://www.clearedtodream.org/

 

[jman90]

Read and reread Ualdrivers post. Spot on!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Read and reread Ualdrivers post. Spot on!

UALdrivers post is accurate...

The big question is who do we want flying US jets in US airspace in the decades to come?

If not Americans then whom?

If we don't invest in our infrastructure, our economy and industry, there will be undesirables flying our jets who don't care about our country.....

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

3 factors for success

1. Four year degree

2. Licenses and ratings

3. Flight hours and work experience

Those three things are the main boxes that need to be checked to get a career job.

Most of the above posts have highlighted many of the issues with our industry. He won't walk in to a six-figure job out of college/flight school.

I would suggest getting the degree and the private pilot certificate.

Free tuition at the University where you teach would be nice. Take a summer and go get the private license at time-intensive school.

If that is not an option and if he were my son, I would strongly consider Purdue university. The have an excellent program. I have always enjoyed flying with their alumni.

Good Luck,

Jeff

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I have flown with many FO's who were quick to discuss how they had over $100,000 in student loans from their flight training and college education. Unless you have parents to pay off part of that loan or you win the lottery, you will never get out from under that amount of debt on a pilot salary. In todays market figure a couple years flight instructing (under $20,000), A couple years flying freight if you are lucky ($30-40K). Then back to some regional with many years at low FO scales trying to build the illustrious PIC turbine (many years making under $40K). At what point in the first 10 years of your aviation degree are you going to start paying back these loans? These loans are not forgivable in Bankruptcy. You are looking at over $1000 a month loan payments. This is almost half your take home salary for a lot of your initial years. And realize this career continues to see a downward push on pay and work rules. This is not your daddy's airline career any more. Add onto all this cabbatoge, the multi crew pilots license, about 15000 furloughed pilots, and a sour economy and things are going to be going in the wrong direction for a while.

I seriously don't know how anybody can get into aviation anymore. I would say the only way I would do it is through the military If I had to do it over again knowing what I know. The only reason I stay is that I have a sugar mamma that has allowed us to keep a descent QOL and saved us during Furlough.

Good luck with you and your sons choice. But If he really loves to fly let him get his Private License and find a career that will let him get those $100 hamburgers.

 

[surplus1]

Thank you so much; you made my night. I will go to the edge of the earth for him. As I always tell him, if you try in life, I will support you in your hopes and dreams.

Congratulations on your support for your son. Read again the post by ualdriver it contains very good advice.

I once had the 'dream' of becoming a professional airman. It was a very long time ago and conditions have changed a great deal. Today's 'dreams' of being a pilot are not the same as they used to be back then but if your son's dreams are real - by that I mean a true love of flight for the sake of flight - he should not give them up. "Where there's a will there's a way" is as true today as ever it has been.

My own dreams were realized and I'm proud to know I made it happen. There were many bumps along the way, many disappointments and many moments of sheer exiliration. As I look back over the years (I'm retired now) I've never regretted a single moment despite the many hardships. But, I've always been 'in love' with airplanes and the experience of flight; I still am.

I was never motivated by money and so the times when I had none and worried about feeding my family, although difficult, never changed my dream. Neither did the times when I made a great deal of money. It's a roller coaster ride this career - but there is no other like it if you truly love to fly. From the Piper Cub, to the adrenaline of the military fighter, to the majesty of 'heavy metal', to the far away places with strange sounding names - it's all been a blast.

If you are not familiar with the poem High Flight please read it. As a college professor you will understand it. Let your boy read it too. If it means nothing to him ... you'll have part of your answer. You can find it here: http://www.potw.org/archive/potw433.html

If I can be of any help do not hesitate to PM me. Although I'm no longer active as a professional, I am still up to date with relevant information.

Good luck to you and to your son.

 

[pilotyip]

Really look at any branch of the military that offers flight training. It is one of the surest paths to an airline cockpit. He has to love to fly and not care the things listed in my trailer.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Keep in mind these facts:

Price to obtain a Private, Instrument and Commercial Certificate is at least $75,000 and with the CFI for Single and multiengine with Instrument Instructor add about $15,000 by the time he's there. This can be less in rural areas and more in the more expensive metro areas.

The least expensive way to do this is to attend a local community college while learning to fly up through the commercial at a local airport (if you can find one).

Then complete the CFI training through a University CFI course over the summer before attending that school so as to hopefull get a job flight instructing at that school while becoming a student pursuing a degree in engineering or something other than aviation-BS.

Professor: I'm glad to see you've come on to this board for the real story from real professionals who are in this business.

Caution: Beware of college marketing that assure students of a job upon graduation, other than flight instructing.

This is not to say he will not get a job as an airline pilot. He will get that job if he obtains the licenses and keeps after the Regional Airline jobs. His pay will start at around $20,000 and will eventually get to about $80,000 after 10 years. This type of job is real work and stressful too, what with 4 to 7 legs per day. So the bottom line is: No one should go after this job unless they really love flying for flying, otherwise it is all work with little pay.

 

[Fly91]

"Ualdrivers" post is just what I would have said.

Tell your son to pick another career...UNLESS...he is prepared to possibly never make it to the major airlines and be prepared to spend many years in the regionals "even if he makes it there" working alot more hours than he probably wants to, literally live in houses while on the road (called crash pads) with 6-10 other poeple sleeping on mattresses scattered around the house, not being home too often and literally make peanuts for possibly 10 years as a co-pilot, because captain upgrades are at a stand still in the regionals. Because nobody is going to the majors anymore.

The good ole days of aviation is long gone, and it will not be returning anytime soon, at least not in the USA. I have friends working for foreign airlines (Cathay Pacific, Korean and JAL) and they make a ton of money with amazing quality-of-life. Its just not going to happen anymore in the USA. If and when it picks up here in the USA, and thats a huge "IF", the 10's of thousands of ex-airline guys who are out of work will be first to get hired back.

If he wants to fly, tell him to stop thinking airlines, and at least look towards corporate jet flying. Its still an industry that has taken a big hit lately, but there's a MUCH better chance of him literally going right to the top in just 3-4 years after he has his licenses and ratings, where in the airlines, forget about that happening. WHY......in the corporate industry its all who you know and how you meet people and impress people. If you're simply "liked" by an aircraft owner/chief pilot somewhere in the corporate industry you can leap over a high time jet guy for a job, I've seen it happen dozens of times and just as recently as last month. If he wants a nice career as a pilot, corporate jet flying is the way to go, not the airlines. Not anymore.

No sugar coating, just the facts.

As far as the degree goes, its always better to have one. Major airlines require a 4-year degree, and I believe the regionals hire with 2 or 4 year degrees. Corporate flying does not require anything but experience. I know guys flying Gulfstream 550's without degrees and guys flying Learjets without degrees. It will just be nice to have one in case it ever came down to the ole "weeding out process" happens for a job. But any degree will do. Obvioulsy a 4-year degree from a top aviation college would be better for a pilot, then a degree in Business Administration from a non-aviation school. But don't break the bank going to a special aviation school. Get the licenses and ratings at the local airport, and the degree wherever you can afford to send him.

Good luck.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Obvioulsy a 4-year degree from a top aviation college would be better for a pilot, then a degree in Business Administration from a non-aviation school.

Fly91: I can not agree with what you say here and I don't think most of the Board would agree either.

A degree in Aviation Science or Aviation Management or Aviation Whatever (Unless it's Aviation Technology with an A&P) doesn't help in the piloting profession, it's just the FAA pilot licenses that count. Really, if a person just has the proper FAA certificates and then also has a degree in Engineering or an IT degree that is better because it sets that person apart as someone who did it the more difficult academic route, providing a real back-up education. An Engineering Degree or something like that distinguishes that person, plus it provides a backup to get into something else once the glory of 5 to 7 legs per day, delays on delays, and sleeping in the crew lounge on those strangely curved torture chairs wears off.

 

[pilotyip]

College can be a waste of time

(oldie fits here) The country needs all the college-educated citizens it can have, its raises the level of knowledge to keep this as the greatest country in the world. Real degrees in business, engineering, the sciences, math, and medicine provide a graduate with marketable skills. If you are going to go to college, get a real degree from a real university. Do not spend four years getting a liberal arts degree that leads to a job at Starbucks. The college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Many have posted they agree it has nothing to do with the mastering on an airplane. I have admitted that the possession of a degree may open doors at a few select places of employment in the airline industry. If a potential pilot feels they will only be pleased in life if they get an interview with FedEx, then that prospective pilot should go to college. If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary. Many prospective pilots may be steered into attending college when they are not college material, not because of a lack basic intelligence, but because it is not important to them. These pilots want to get on with their lives flying airplanes. I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position with out a degree. But then my focus is on job satisfaction and not upon pay, respect, and prestige. It is about the joy of flying an airplane. Others out there may feel the same motivation I do. My advice is go to school part time or community college and fly, pilots get hired because they have flight time. Flt time moves you up the food chain to better jobs; the degree is not needed until the last step. You can go to school part time with a full time flying job, you cannot build real flight time while going to school full time. I have seen non-degreed guys go to the Nationals in their mid-20’s.

 

[Caveman]

Price to obtain a Private, Instrument and Commercial Certificate is at least $75,000 and with the CFI for Single and multiengine with Instrument Instructor add about $15,000 by the time he's there. This can be less in rural areas and more in the more expensive metro areas.

While I agree with most of what you and others have written your price quotes for training costs are a bit exaggerated. Check out this link:

http://www.flymfs.com/204.html

$38K for PVT, COMM, INSTR and MULTI. Price is guaranteed in writing and includes all books, equipment, checkrides and housing. That's just one example. At this particular school he could get all the above plus his CFI, CFII and MEI for $47K. That also includes all equipment, books, checkrides and housing.

Learning to fly isn't cheap, but if dad can get him a free or discounted college education where dad works and the kid can beg/borrow/earn $47K he will have all he needs to get started on a flying career. These days $47K is what a mid level luxury SUV costs.

In the interest of full disclosure I went to Mazzei for all but my PVT certificate, but this isn't a promo for them. I want to show the OP that it is possible to get quality flight instruction for less than the $100K figure folks are tossing around. Yes, I definitely would recommend Mazzei but I also think AllATPs is a good program too.

 

[Fly91]

Fly91: I can not agree with what you say here and I don't think most of the Board would agree either.

A degree in Aviation Science or Aviation Management or Aviation Whatever (Unless it's Aviation Technology with an A&P) doesn't help in the piloting profession, it's just the FAA pilot licenses that count. Really, if a person just has the proper FAA certificates and then also has a degree in Engineering or an IT degree that is better because it sets that person apart as someone who did it the more difficult academic route, providing a real back-up education. An Engineering Degree or something like that distinguishes that person, plus it provides a backup to get into something else once the glory of 5 to 7 legs per day, delays on delays, and sleeping in the crew lounge on those strangely curved torture chairs wears off.

So you and most on this board really think that a degree in Aeronautical Science from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University as opposed to a degree in Business Administration from Florida State.....will hurt a pilot....going for a pilot position?

I said this:
Obvioulsy a 4-year degree from a top aviation college would be better for a pilot, then a degree in Business Administration from a non-aviation school.

Everyone here would be wrong if they do not agree with that statement 100%. But I'm sure there's someone with a wonderful story how they beat out a graduate from ERAU with a degree in basket weaving from a Jamaican college.

The guy with the degree in Aero Sci from ERAU will get the job every time over the Biz Admin guy from FL State. Every time. When everything else is equal. What moron company wouldn't choose the best suited person for the job? When hiring a professional, its morethan just the licenses and ratings, its how well rounded they are in their field of expertise. 4 years in a naviation college kills 4 years in a business college.

I never brought up Engineering degrees. This father and his son are trying to figure the best way into aviation and getting a job. An engineering degree is a waste of time, money and effort. I have met a handful of pilots with all out Engineering degrees. People who get those types of degrees usually go into those fields. Pilots mostly have any ole BS or BA degree from any ole college in the nation. Its all you need to get into the major airlines, FedEx, UPS, etc....

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

While I agree with most of what you and others have written your price quotes for training costs are a bit exaggerated. Check out this link:

http://www.flymfs.com/204.html

Caveman: Thanks for the informatiion provided. This is the best deal anywhere. At least $25K lower than anywhere else that I am aware of. And your advice to go for this and then get the education locally at Dad's college and/or maybe in cooperation with a local Community College is the way to do all this for the least money. Hopefully, while attending college the young man here can get a job flight instructing locally so as to stay involved in aviation, make a few dollars and to also feel good about his accomplishments with the help of a Dad who really cares enough to seek the advice of the FlightInfo pros instead of reading all the 4-color adds by ERAU and their Marketing Department (BS Department) and others.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I said this:
Obvioulsy a 4-year degree from a top aviation college would be better for a pilot, then a degree in Business Administration from a non-aviation school.

Sorry, but that's not my experience in this business. It's attitude 50%, pilot certificates 40% and education 10%. A degree from any school that is impressive is what a person wants to win out in the interview. How about any degree in anything from Stanford? Or how about a degree from MIT? All of those trump an ERAU degree in the competition you present. So if we continue this thought, it's get the degree that will teach you the most as a back-up and distinguish that person too. Sorry, but ERAU doesn't do much but say how that person spent way too much money on something that could have been obtained for so much less. It says that that person’s father (or the individual) never got on this Board to get the great advice we all can provide.

On the other hand, a degree in something that everyone knows is difficult and really takes some intellect to complete also says something for sure. To my way of thinking that would be an Engineering Degree, plus such a degree in this business is unusual but everyone knows that type of person has the right though process for this business.

So if I were hiring someone for a pilot positon, all things equal, I'd hire the guy with a technical degee that says that person is more capable that the next guy. Sorry, but the ERAU (nor many others) do that for me.

This is not to say the ERAU grad can't find a job because he went there. I have seen plenty of such grads that have great flying jobs, but the point is that I've also seen many many others with and without aviation degrees get those same jobs too.