Please Help Me

[Dakota Flyer]

Please Help Me

I need help finding information proving that a pilot with 2 DWI's on his/her record will basically be un hireable by the major airlines. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ron

 

[Anais Nin]

In today's environment a Native American female with Space Shuttle time who is the CEO's favorite daughter cant get hired! Two DUI's cannot possibly help this person! But I'm sure any flight school would gladly accept their $30,000 to become one of the outstanding 1000's of qualified, unemployed pilots pounding the pavement for a job in this f'ed-up industry!!!

 

[User546]

I have to second what Anais said.

Even putting aside the state of the airline industry, they've had enough black-eyes in the past few years relating to pilots being accused of flying drunk. To take on someone with previous offenses (nevermind TWO) would be too large of a liability to the company.

Atleast thats my opinion and .02

 

[Eagleflip]

In the FAA's eyes, two DUI's (regardless of the time interval between them..even over twenty years) is sufficient evidence to require a person who wants to hold a Class I medical to--at the very least--obtain an evaluation by a Subtance Abuse Professional.

Often they'll then be required to attend an inpatient clinic for alcoholism and spend months going through the motions to obtain a special issuance medical.

Not to deny your friend the opportunity to fly for a living, but holding a Class I will be a difficult endeavor. But not impossible! There are many folks who have successfully coped with this kind of problem.

Remember that one simply cannot just "not report" a DUI. Failure to do so would almost innevitably result in far stiffer fines and subsequent repercussions when hired by a 121/135 carrier.

 

[Dakota Flyer]

I think you may have misunderstood me. I realize that it is not a good thing. What I'm looking for is a source ie. article, website etc. that says so. I need something to back up what I already know is true. A pilot with 2 DWI's in a 5 year time span is basically screwed when it comes to getting a job with the majors. I know almost everyone on here will agree with that, I'm just searching for more hard evidence to support the fact.

Thanks

 

[MarineGrunt]

You won't find any. The aren't any laws on the books that would prevent someone from being hired at a major. The only thing I can think of would be certain company policies on hiring, which I'm sure would be confidnetial.

Is this for some type of project, or just trying to prove a point to someone?

 

[erj-145mech]

I think you may have misunderstood me. I realize that it is not a good thing. What I'm looking for is a source ie. article, website etc. that says so. I need something to back up what I already know is true. A pilot with 2 DWI's in a 5 year time span is basically screwed when it comes to getting a job with the majors. I know almost everyone on here will agree with that, I'm just searching for more hard evidence to support the fact.

Thanks

You're asking this question to the wrong group. You need to contact the HR departments at the carriers what their requirements are, and if these are disqualifying circumstances.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

dude, just quit drinking and sign up for a truck driving school, maybe aviation's not for you

 

[FN FAL]

Maybe 121 airlines should start using polygraphs in the pre-hire process, rather than relying on previous drunk driving arrests as a hiring limitation.

 

[Horizon]

they've had enough black-eyes in the past few years relating to pilots being accused of flying drunk. To take on someone with previous offenses (nevermind TWO) would be too large of a liability to the company.

There is nothing wrong with flying drunk. That is what the auto-pilot is for.

 

[atlcrashpad]

2 DUI's

Dakota Flyer,

I'm a firm believer in Second Chances. Two DUI's are a bit much, however not the end of the world. As far as 121 operators go, this person might want to get their medical back (if able) and fly 135 for a while to prove their "New" record.

I also have a friend who has two DUI's (last one 4 yrs ago and the previos 10 yrs before that) and he want to become a Commercial pilot. I basically told him the same thing I'm saying here. He is on his way to a 141 Helicopter school and plans to instruct to build time then fly the Gulf of Mexico.

Good Luck to your friend. Not everyone can do it, but a lot of people turn their lives around.

 

[MissKittyKat]

OMG horizon, you crack me up! A clean driving record is important when taking a job at the majors. But also 135 ops do a credit check, if they are going to issue you a company Amex, they want proof that you have good credit, I did work in some supplemental charters that did have pilots and captains wiht dui's, but they cleaned up their act, so they decided to have their wives drive them to the bar instead! LOL!

Good luck with your reasearch!

Smile everyone please!

 

[FN FAL]

Some captain waiting to jumpseat out to work was telling me that his national airline required two dui's to get an interview there.

I think there was more to the story than what he was letting on to.

 

[GoingHot]

Airlines? "TWO" DUI's. Dude, with MADD and all the other drinking Nazi's running around, I'm surprised you're not in prison, for life.

 

[Dakota Flyer]

The reason I need this information in print is to give to the States Atourney. He has already informally agreed to drop it to a Reckless but my lawyer thinks it would be a good idea to provide him with this info. I did a google search the other day and came across an article that was written in a flying magazine that basically said exactly what I'm looking for. I was hoping someone else on here read it but I guess not. Anyway, most of you are only interested in giving me smart ass remarks so I'll look elsewhere. For those of you that were sincere, I thank you.

 

[FN FAL]

The reason I need this information in print is to give to the States Atourney. He has already informally agreed to drop it to a Reckless but my lawyer thinks it would be a good idea to provide him with this info. I did a google search the other day and came across an article that was written in a flying magazine that basically said exactly what I'm looking for. I was hoping someone else on here read it but I guess not. Anyway, most of you are only interested in giving me smart ass remarks so I'll look elsewhere. For those of you that were sincere, I thank you.

just out of curiosity what was your BAC on the two busts and what was the probable cause for the officer to stop you?

be brief and don't give away any information like municipality or personal names. I'm a criminal justice student and just curious.

 

[Horizon]

just out of curiosity what was your BAC on the two busts and what was the probable cause for the officer to stop you?

be brief and don't give away any information like municipality or personal names. I'm a criminal justice student and just curious.

BAC: .27

Probable cause: Driving the wrong way, on the sidewalk.

 

[Dakota Flyer]

BAC .107

70 in a 65

 

[MissKittyKat]

Dakota, first of all, I hope I wasn't the one who was trying to make you feel like we aren't sincere, I hate to see your feelings get, mine get hurt real easy.

True story: I really did have the opportunity to fly with some guys with dui's.
Large jets and charter, they have been given a chance because of thier honesty, since then the charter companies I worked for bellied up.

They went on to Polar and Atlas and have been type rated and still are working and are still great pilots. I am sorry I didn't have handy the information you were looking for, but I was trying to brighten your day, that yes some pilots have dui's. And still get work.

You really seem to be aspiring and I'm quite sure many will jump in and support you. I know someone very very close to me who was arrested on a gun charge and is still flying and still working.

The world is not perfect, demostate the responsibility and you will go far, whatever it takes never ever give up, someone will hire you!

Have a bright day!
Your friends at flightfo

 

[agpilot34]

Dude, sounds to me like you havent learned your lesson yet. Seems to me that all you are concerned about is getting the judge to give you a little slap on the wrist, for a SECOND time I might ad, instead of sending your butt to jail, and to hell with the fact that YOU screwed up again. "Why yes, Mr. district attorney, I know this is my second DUI, but I'm trying to be an airline pilot..." So, exactly how DO you explain two DUI's within 5 years? What did you NOT learn the first time around that made you do it again? There's hundreds, if not thousands of pilots out here that have never had a traffic ticket, much less a DUI in their entire lives... why do you think that an airline, given the choice between one of those pilots with a spotless record, and you, who have demonstrated a lack of responsibility and a tendancy to not learn from your mistakes, would hire you over another? Sorry, but I dont have much sympathy for someone who gets their 1st DUI, let alone a second one! It's been illegal to drink and drive for many years, my friend, and there's just no legitimate excuse for driving under the influence, I dont care WHAT the situation is. Now, I see that you have your PPL and 60 hours. I would suggest that you take your SECOND lucky break from the courts and keep your little nose clean while you are building your ratings and hours. After a period of time, yeah, you may have a shot at a 121 job, but you might as well accept the fact that your record will be somewhat of a hinderance. Like soneone said, get a 91 or 135 job and build some time at that when you are able. If a company sees that you've turned your life around and have a couple of years of a proven track record, your odds will be greatly increased. But dont start whining about these guys getting harsh with you in their remarks... after all, YOU are the one who made the bed you're lying in, not us. Having said all that, I sincerely wish you luck, and hope you realize how lucky you are to have a "SECOND" second chance. Dont piss it away by being stupid.

 

[Dakota Flyer]

Agpilot,

Please show me where I was looking for simpathy. Not that it is any of your business, but I am not a 60 hr private pilot, and I am not planning on a job with the airlines, and "I" am not trying to get out of a DWI. If you weren't such a simple minded ass pirate sprayer, you might have refrained before giving an E sermon to someone who doesn't give a Flying F*%$ about your high and mighty opinion. All I asked for was a link to some reference material on the subject. I never once said I thought, hoped, planned, wished, or wanted to be an airline pilot. I never asked if it was possible, or if anyone knew someone who had done it before, or for any type of advice at all for that matter. Your whole reply was basically full of ASSumptions. For your information, I have about 1200 more hours than you, have a decent paying corporate/private flying job, and I don't have so much as a traffic ticket on my driving record in the past 14 years. Since you took it upon yourself to dole out some un needed/wanted advice, I'll follow your lead with this... next time you are filling your hopper with bug juice, in the hangar, with the doors closed, wear a mask you self richeous prick.

Sincerely,

Ron

 

[MTpilot]

more useless information

Hey now, easy on the agpilots, some of em are nice guys, and they work too damn hard to take crap like that from you.

Anyway, I think your best bet would be a letter from someone in the hiring department at a major.

Maybe you could show your attorney this thread. HA HA!

Funny how many people completely missed the intent of your post.

Best of luck.

Hey where did my cusswords go?

 

[agpilot34]

Heheh, hit a little nerve, did I?? Maybe you need to update your profile (since you've been on this board for so long... 5 posts now.) It shows you have 60 hours and a PPL. As for me, I would clue you in to my experience, but I can see it would fall on deaf ears, so I wont waste my time. Pirate sprayer?? Geez, surely you could come up with something more original than that one! Suffice to say I havent flown ag ops in QUITE a while, and I need to update my hours on my profile, as well. "YOU" are the one who said you needed the info to give to your attorney, so that says to me that "YOU" are the one trying to get out of a DUI, or at least get one pled down to a lesser charge. No assumptions made there, I was merely going by what you posted there, ace. As far as your hours, I couldn't give two shits less about how many hours you have, or how many more you think you have than me. That's an ASSumption on your part. Dont get in a pissin' contest with me over flight experience and pilot skills son, you'll be up past your bedtime. I've got a very nice part 91 job myself, and have had for a few years now. I havent had to fill a hopper with, how did you put it, "bug juice" (there's your intelligence showing for sure. Are you one of those tree hugging eco-weenies?) in quite a while. Didnt do it much when I WAS flying ag, that's what the loader guys are for. Lastly, as far as me being a "self-righteous prick"... oh well!!

 

[FN FAL]

BAC .107

70 in a 65

tough break. Back in the day before .08 you probably might have gotten by with a written warning.

How would you describe your vehicle? All lights were working? Is it late model? What color? Is it dented and rusty or fairly newer?

4 door, 2 door, truck, SUV?

Once again, no identifying characteristics (don't need the make or model just the type)...just wondering if your vehicle was a draw.

Were there other passengers in the car?

Do you have any decals on the car, like NIN or Anti-bush or Anti-Kerry type stickers?

Did the officer make any comments about your passengers?

Was there a search of the vehicle prior to the arrest or after?

70 in 65 is pretty lame probable cause for stopping you...I was doing seven over when I passed a marked police vehicle tonight and he didn't even glance at me. He was doing 5 over and I just left my cruise set at 7 over and glided by.

 

[agpilot34]

tough break. Back in the day before .08 you probably might have gotten by with a written warning.

How would you describe your vehicle? All lights were working? Is it late model? What color? Is it dented and rusty or fairly newer?

4 door, 2 door, truck, SUV?

Once again, no identifying characteristics (don't need the make or model just the type)...just wondering if your vehicle was a draw.

Were there other passengers in the car?

Do you have any decals on the car, like NIN or Anti-bush or Anti-Kerry type stickers?

Did the officer make any comments about your passengers?

Was there a search of the vehicle prior to the arrest or after?

70 in 65 is pretty lame probable cause for stopping you...I was doing seven over when I passed a marked police vehicle tonight and he didn't even glance at me. He was doing 5 over and I just left my cruise set at 7 over and glided by.

Oh yeah, all VERY good reasons to let a drunk driver go, or get a legitimate charge thrown out of court. Decals on the window? Come on! Doesnt seem to matter to some of you attorney types that the driver behind the wheel is IMPAIRED and needs to be off the road... Maybe when one runs over and possibly kills one of your loved ones, you'll see the light. Then again, maybe not. Go do a few death notifications where you have to tell a wife or husband and their children that their significant other is never coming home again because they were just killed by a drunk driver and we'll see how you feel about decals on a window. By the way, 70 in a 65, however lame you may think it is, is STILL a speed violation, and is enforceable. Even if it is questioned in court, as long as the officer can document that he has stopped other violators in the same area for the same offence, it will stand. Hey, some people flip burgers while they are doing their flight training... I spent a few years as a police officer. Certified traffic radar operator, state certified in SFST (Standardized Field Sobriety Testing), DUI interdiction coordinator for my department at the time.

 

[FN FAL]

Oh yeah, all VERY good reasons to let a drunk driver go, or get a legitimate charge thrown out of court.

What's a legitimate charge? The legitimacy of the charge isn't known until the facts are examined in a trial and a conviction is handed down.

I know two pilots that got DUI's tossed out because the buffoons that wrote the tickets screwed up. In another situation, I was waiting in court for my traffic ticket case and I saw a judge cuss a cop out of the courtroom for screwing up the label on a blood sample; the judge tossed the DUI case out.

Crappy police work isn't the fault of the lawyers that point this fact out in court.

 

[Dakota Flyer]

"I spent a few years as a police officer."

That explains everything Assflyer.

 

[agpilot34]

Oh Dick-ota Flyer, Arent you a mature little worm... run along back to class now, Ronald, you've showed your lack of intelligence long enough.

Fn Fal- There's just as many crappy lawyers as there are crappy cops. SO, you are saying that hypothetically, someone who tests a BAC of .107 (which is legally intoxicated in my state, and has been for years) should be turned back out into the street just because maybe the arresting officer misworded a report or something? I'm not trying to justify bad police work, so dont take it wrong... If there are serious mistakes or conduct on the part of the arresting officers, there should be consequences for them. I just dont agree with competely throwing a case out of court based solely on some simple little BS technicality, like an attorney trying to prove that a person was stopped because of a decal on their window. "Why yes, your honor, the suspect did have a politically subversive decal placed in the center of his rear vehicle window, at approximately eye level, which could be considered an obstruction of driver view, but that was not the reason for the traffic stop and subsequent arrest. I observed the suspect's vehicle cross left of center 6 times within a 1 mile distance, 2 times of which the suspect's vehicle was far enough left of center to force 2 oncoming vehicles onto the shoulder of their lane to avoid contact. This was my probable cause for stopping the vehicle. Upon contacting the suspect (driver) and speaking with him, this officer detected an odor of an alcoholic beverage on or about the driver's person, and observed him to be unsteady on his feet, and his speech to be slurred and unclear..." Now, had I been this officer and misworded one sentence of that report, the driver's attorney might have gotten the charge dismissed. Doesnt excuse the fact that he was drunk and could have killed someone, and it doesnt mean that my police work was crappy or that I have it in for the man because of some hidden agenda... maybe it means that it's 3:30 in the morning, I've been on duty since 7 PM, been to 4 domestic calls, worked three accidents, and made 3 DUI arrests prior to this one, and my brain was tired when I wrote the report. What I mean is, there is a very clear difference between a minor technicality and a serious abuse of police power.

Just out of curiosity, how do you figure he could have gotten a written warning for a BAC of .107 if the charge had been made back before the .08 laws came about? .10 was the legal limit in most states before .08 came about.

 

[FN FAL]

Just out of curiosity, how do you figure he could have gotten a written warning for a BAC of .107 if the charge had been made back before the .08 laws came about? .10 was the legal limit in most states before .08 came about.

Maybe they don't trust officer discretion in Iowa for things as small as seven thousandths of a percent.

 

[agpilot34]

Hmm... possibly not. I had one blow a .108 one night, and the charge stuck, but all states are different, and all courts are different. My state is notoriously strict on DUI offenders, so or prosecution rate is pretty high. We actually have two DUI charges here... .08 is the limit for DUI, then we have another charge which is Aggrevated DUI. Cant remember the limit right off the top of my head, but it is an automatic felony charge, even for a first offense.