Please Help! HS Senior in Distress

[Leo R.]

Greeting! I'm a high school senior, and I'm in a dliemma right now.
First of all, I have applied to both, Annapolis and Air Force Academy. From what I've been told is that I will have no problem being accepted to either. The problem is, my congressman can only give me one nomination, either Annapolis or Air Force. Since I was a kid, I have always wanted to be an Air Force pilot, but I've had second thoughts this past week, and changed my priority nomination to Annapolis. From the research I've been doing, and the people I've spoken to, I think that there is more of an opportunity in the Navy to be a fighter pilot. Statistically, apparently at Annapolis, 99% of those who wanted to go to pilot training got the slot. 216 people from last year's graduating class went to pilot training. On the other hand, the Air Force Academy sends about half of their graduating class to pilot training.
The reason I changed my mind and am currently deciding to fly navy is that I really really really want to be a fighter pilot. It seems like there is more opportunity in the Navy, cause everything in the Navy is either fighter, or fighter support. I would really hate to go to the Air Force Academy, graduate, and serve a 10 year commitment flying the "heavies." Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that there is more opportunity in the Navy to be a fighter pilot.
Also, I think that the experiences that I can get in the Navy outweigh those I can get in the Air Force. I think in the Navy that there is more opportunity to see the world, and I also think that taking off and landing from an aircraft carrier would be sweet. I'm also looking at the distant future. Apparently, the Naval Academy generates more astronauts than any other university, and I have also considered being an astronaut in the future.
Another reason that I am currently choosing Navy over Air Force is the location of the bases. Navy has Air Stations in pretty nice places (i.e. San Diego, Corpus Christi, Pensacola, etc.). Air Force has bases in pretty crappy places (ex. Holloman, and Kirkland). I think the only disadvantage in the Navy is being stuck on a carrier for so long. But I would rather be stuck on a carrier flying a "Super Hornet" than being stuck on land flying a "Heavy."
I know this is long and thank you for reading. I really hope I made the right decision to change my priority nomination to Annapolis instead of Air Force Academy. I would really like to talk to an military pilots and hear their advice. If any of you have AOL Instant messenger my screen name is StreetbikerFZR. Thanks in advance for any advice.


Leo R.
El Paso, TX

 

[rjl2001]

Well I am not a pilot, but can tell you what I think. If you have always wanted to fly fighters your whole life for the Air Force then do just that. You said you are considering the Navy because it may be easier. If you have the opportunity to go to the Air Force Academy then you are already in the best place you could be to fly in the Air Force. It might be tougher but that is for a reason, the Air Force only wants the best. If you choose to go to the AFA and continue to do well in school, and you have no physical or eye sight problems, then there is no reason you would not make it if you tried. Also, you said the navy is all fighter or fighter support, I dissagree. The Air Force's whole mission is based around its fighters. The Air Force pretty much exists to maintain air and space superiority. The Navy is there to keep peace on the water. Everything in the Navy supports its mission on keeping the water safe. Anyways, that is my opinion.
good luck whatever you choose

 

[AlbieF15]

Go to the AF Academy. Sign up for soaring as a cadet.

....work hard....do good.....

Then you can work towards being a soaring instructor.

....work hard...do good

Keep your GPA and military scores in the upper half.

Next...apply for Euro-NATO pilot training at Sheppard. If selected, you will then have a very good statistical chance of getting a fighter. I can't guarantee F-16 or F-15, etc, but odds are very good at Sheppard you will end up as either a FAIP with a follow on fighter or going directly into the AF as a fighter guy.

No slam on the Navy...Holy Cow they land on boats! But you will have a LOT of options choose from in you go the USAFA route. You will also never be pressured to do anything else (surface, subs) besides FLY if you are so inclined. Good luck...in any case you are off to a great start.

 

[MercuryPilot]

Go Navy!

Leo,
I had appointments to both Academies as a HS Senior and had to make the same choice. Here's a few things to consider about the Academy part of your question:

If you go to Navy and for some reason can't be a Pilot (grades, not physically qualified, whatever...), think about what else you can do. There opportunities to see the world and have a GREAT career as a guy in Surface, Subs, Special Operations, Special Warfare, Intel, Crypto, Supply, Medical Corps, Aviation as a Navigator, etc. If you like the outdoors you can also be commisioned into the U.S. Marine Corps upon graduation and choose from a slew of jobs there as well.-The Navy has a lot of important missions that don't involve Aviation.

If you go to the Air Force Academy and can't be a Pilot, your odds of ending up in a Missile Silo are pretty good.-Probably won't see the world from in there. Your odds are VERY high of being treated like a second-class citizen your entire career.-That's unfortunate, but a very real possibility and dirty little secret. Let's face it, the AF is all about keeping the Pilots in their a/c so they can project air power. Everyone in the air force is doing something to keep the Pilots flying. It is an organization for Pilots, run by Pilots. If you get that Pilot spot, YOU ARE THE MAN and will be treated as such! If you don't, it may be a tougher road ahead.

I've been stationed on AF Bases and stood alert at plenty of others. It's a FACT that if you're a Pilot, people treat you differently when you're in the AF. In the Navy, most of the top jobs are NOT held by Pilots. In fact, there are only a handful of Admirals who are Pilots. Nobody treats you differently. Everyone's just doing their job for their niche in the Navy. If you're a Pilot in the USMC you are pretty much guaranteed NOT to be a player in D.C.

What does all this mean? Just make sure you are happy w/the service options facing you out of either Academy should you not get one of the Pilot spots.

Either way it's a great feeling to serve your Country. Good on you for wanting to make that kind of committment.

I think your idea about having a better chance at being a fighter guy in the Navy than in the AF may be inaccurate. There are fewer spots for Jets out of Navy Primary than there are for the P-3, E-2, E-6, and Helos.

It's going to take the same thing to get a fighter spot out of either service. -You're going to have to study very hard and beat out the other students. I flew Heavies and all of my AF buddies who fly Heavies love it. All of my friends who fly Tactical love it. All of my friends who fly the P-3 love it. For that matter, I don't know any Pilots who don't love what they're doing regardless of platform. You'll just be happy to be a Pilot.

PM me if you have any USNA specific questions.

Go Navy, Beat Army!

 

[Purple Haze]

You can't go wrong either way, provided you are there for the right reason and you give it all you've got. I would suggest you not be naive about the large number of support (non-fighter)aircraft the Navy flies - I don't know the ratio, but they have a fair number of P-3s and C-130s (among others).

I don't know where your fighter opportunity is greater. I do know the Air Force has a substantially greater number of fighter aircraft (of course they have more heavies, too).

Best of luck - I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[thumper7]

You aren't a fighter pilot yet!

Hopeful aviator:
it is good to know you have your focus set on a specific goal, but the Navy is very fat on fighter pilots at this point in time. I did not goto the AF academy, but have visited it several times since I have been in. I am currently a 37 instructor who knows that the navy students going through vance are all getting helicopters or p-3's. In order to compete for a fighter slot you must have an NSS of 50 or better. I have known of only one Navy guy at Vance who has gotten a fighter slot. If you were to make it in the fighter world in the Navy you will not fly as much as your AF counter parts. Think about the kind of technology the AF has and is flying compared to the Navy. The F-14 is one of the best fighter jets out there, but they are getting very old. You could possibly make it into the Navy fighter program and not make it because you can't land on the boat, that is not going to happen in the AF. I know the feeling you have about wanting something so bad, but the track you are taking is no sure thing. I really think the AF will give you a better education and a better shot at getting a fighter. I really hope you change your preferrence and GO AF!!!

 

[furloboy]

I wouldn't pick a service based on what's going on with their fighters this week. You've still got four years of matriculatin' before you even start primary training. What's going on now with any service and their selection process could change a couple of different times by then.

If you've always wanted to fly fighters for the USAF--then do it. By and large they do the fighter business better than anyone in the world (except below 80 knots and above 30 degrees AOA ;-). They're a great bunch of folks--you'll have a blast.

BTW, for Navy fighter bases you've got Lemoore (ugh) and Oceana (not bad--but not what it used to be). And a couple of squadrons in Beaufort (look on a map).

There are many, many things that can happen between now and then--and you can't control most of them. Pick a path, bust your backside and make the best of what's presented to you.

Good luck!

 

[P3tarbaby]

Albie and Mercury both had some good info for you. Let me add...

Another option you may want to consider is ROTC. I did and loved it. You get the military commission but you also get to enjoy the normal college experience. There is nothing wrong with going to one of the academies but make sure you are ready for that lifestyle. Both NROTC and AFROTC can get you the same end result...a pilot slot. Once you get the slot, you have to work hard to get into the platform of your dream, but even then, the needs of the service can overrule that (at least in the Navy). My selection week in primary it was 5 jets, 5 props, 9 helos, but the week after me was a whole class of helos and a few weeks later a whole class of jets. Timing is everything.

A few other things to consider:

The pay is the same for either.

Navy bases are in better locations (usually near water) but AF bases are nicer (they spend money on bases, not ships).

Mercury had a good point about your options if you can't fly with the Navy vs. the AF, but all things equal, I think your overall chances of getting a pilot slot and flying are better in the AF.

If you fly for the AF, you will be flying fixed wing whether its a fighter or a heavy. With the Navy, there is a chance you'll end up in helos. If you can't handle that, go AF.

In the Navy you will have a ground job in addition to your flying duties. I have heard (AF guys correct me if I'm wrong) that AF pilots only fly and don't have ground jobs.

I don't know how AF deployments work, but in the Navy you are gone for 6 months and home for a year. The jet guys are on the boat for those 6 months and cruise with the carrier to their respective AOR like the persian gulf. During that year at home you'll spend a couple months (cumulative) doing workups on the boat prepairing for your next cruise. In P-3s, you deploy overseas to Japan, Diego Garcia/Oman, Keflavik/Puerto Rico, or Sigonella for the entire 6 months and you stage flights and trips out of there. You spend most of your year at home, at home with an occasional training detachment (no more than a week or so). Helos follow that same cycle as the jet guys for the most part.

Once you finish training and get to your first squadron, you'll spend 3 - 4 years there on sea tour and then go to a 2-3 year shore tour which can be a flying tour like the training command or a non-flying tour like a wing, post-grad school, or the Pentagon. You will continue this sea-shore rotation for the rest of your career with the possibility of getting back to back sea tours. Can't speak for the AF here.

If flying is what you want to do, you really can't go wrong either way. You just have to decide what secondary factors are most important to you. Hope this helps.

 

[Leo R.]

Everyone, thank you so so much for all of your advice. Actually, I have ultimately decided to change my primary nomination back to Air Force. I hate being so indecisive, I know it can't look good on me. I spoke with both, my liason officer, and the Academy recruiter, and I will go head and get the nomination to Air Force. It took some act of God, cause both of them were not at all happy with my indecisiveness. They lectured me, but hopefully, all is well. Once again, thank you very much. One thing I definitely took to heart though is I should go to the academy because I want a great education and to serve my country as a military leader; flying is a plus but not everything. Once again, thank you very much!
Leo Romero
El Paso, TX

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

Best of luck to you. Kick @$$ at the Academy.

 

[Draginass]

I said this before in these forums, but join the military because you want to serve, not because you want to be cool. You will be a military officer first, and a pilot second. Steering yourself towards a specific weapons system is ok, but don't go around talking about being "stuck" in a heavy. You will be though of as immature by your superiors.

The correct way to approach you impending career choice is by wanting to be a military officer first . . . a warrior in service to your countrymen. Also keep in mind that setting your heart so narrowly on a fighter is likely to bring disappointment. You have the possibility of going medically disqualified (injury or disqualification from ejection seat aircraft), not progressing well enough in pilot training to be fighter rated, a dip in pipeline demand for fighters, etc. Keep in mind too, that about a third of those that start pilot training wash out.

I admire you goal setting and encourage you to keep at it, but temper your expectations and take it one step at a time.

Best of luck.

 

[morph]

What to do!

The academies are great don't get me wrong but there are better options out there as far as being prepared for military aviation and all. I've got a friend that goes to the AFA (J.B. Brooks) who loves what he’s doing and getting a great education but he isn’t flying for a while. I graduated last year and had my congressman Ron Paul helping me with my appointments but overall I decided I would be happier at an aeronautical institution getting a da@n good edu. And all my professional pilot stuff out of the way. If you really want fighters then going the civilian route for your edu while getting all the flight experience out of the way isn’t a bad idea. I would bet that a guy that had all his ratings (ppl, instr., comm, me, CFI, ect.ect. would probably do better in his flight schools once getting there vs. the academy route. On top of that having a degree in aeronautical science doesn’t look that bad either. Anyways it seems you have already decided on your future path so good luck and God be with you.


P.S. Don't feel bad when you look up in the sky to see your future 4 plus years away! I'd go civilian

 

[Purple Haze]

In the Navy you will have a ground job in addition to your flying duties. I have heard (AF guys correct me if I'm wrong) that AF pilots only fly and don't have ground jobs.

I don't know how AF deployments work, but in the Navy you are gone for 6 months and home for a year.

Ground job: Same deal in the AF - "additional duties" (That "fly only" deal comes after your military years).

For a rough wag on AF fighter deployments from a former heavy guy who may be wrong: I think they deploy for 60 or 90 days, then they come home for 2 of those cycles (120 or 180 days), lather, rinse, repeat.

Good luck on your appointment - if it doesn't come thru go ROTC. If it does come thru, remember to do soaring at the AFA.

 

[talondriver]

Statistically, apparently at Annapolis, 99% of those who wanted to go to pilot training got the slot. 216 people from last year's graduating class went to pilot training. On the other hand, the Air Force Academy sends about half of their graduating class to pilot training.

Is this correct? I would have thought it was the other way around. My godbrother graduated from Annapolis and he didn't have a chance to pick a pilot slot by the time he picked. On the other hand, I've heard stories of AFA cadets having to talk to the superindendant to turn down pilot slots. Don't know if it's true.

 

[fredflyer]

I think talondriver and some of the others are right on track. It all depends on timing. I got to USAFA in 88 and graduated in '91. When I got there, you pretty much had to stand at attention in front of the superintendent to explain why you didn't want a pilot training slot. When I graduated (after the gulf war and all of the military downsizing), I was in the last class of folks where if you wanted to go to pilot training, you did. The guys in '92 had to compete for their slots. There were a lot less slots than there were people who wanted to go. A lot of them got banked (they had to wait 2-3 years to go).
Euro Nato Joint Jet Pilot training is where you are supposed to get a fighter, but again, that all depends on what the Air Force needs at the time. The guys that made it through in the '90-'93 time frame (there was about a 30% wash out rate) either got a heavy, or a desk for 3 years with the promise of a fighter after that. Later, when they figured out they didn't have enough pilots, they'd let anyone with a heartbeat into UPT, and it was really hard to fail out.
You also have to look at what happens if you don't get a fighter, even if you do well enough in UPT to get one, because they don't need fighter guys at that time. You said that you'd rather get an F-18 on a boat than get "stuck" with a heavy on land, but would you rather take a heavy on land or a helo on the boat. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that you have to consider the alternatives.
If you want a guarantee, go to a guard or reserve flying unit that flies fighters and get hired there. Even if you don't get on as a pilot at first, get in the unit, get your degree, and then apply as a pilot. Then you'll be guaranteed to fly whatever the unit is flying.
I did learn one thing from reading your post, you sure do have the fighter pilot attitude.

 

[Leo R.]

Everyone, once again thank you for the replies. Every post was extremely enlightening and motivating. I really really really hope I get into the Academy. I do meet the standards (my SAT is 10 points higher than last year's avg), I have a 96.5 GPA, have taken the most diffucult classes available at our school, rank in the top 6%, have 2 varsity sports and letters under my belt (track and Cross Country), am involved in 5 clubs, and have done a few leadership things for each, and have a long list of awards under my belt, have my solo for a 152 (but am going to finish getting my ppl before May). Oh yea, I passed the medical, fitness test, and am supposed to get a nomination. My liason officers said I am extremely qualifed, but still, I really really hope I get accepted. I really hope I didn't upset them or destroy my chances with my indecisiveness (switching from Air Force to Navy back to Air Force).

If I don't get accepted though, my backup plan is to go to either Embry Riddle, Texas A&M, or UT Austin for a year, do AF ROTC, and reapply to the academy. The academy has been something I've wanted to do my entire life. I know it has so much to offer, I'm not just going because its free. I know the training at the academy is second to none, and some of my best experiences (and worst) will probably be at the academy. That's just my whole view on things. And it would really really be nice to look at a possible pilot slot after graduation.

Once again thank you very much. It was awesome hearing advice from actual military pilots. To me, military pilots are the best. You guys are such excellents role models, and I really want to be one some day. Once again, thank you very much!

Leo Romero
El Paso, TX

 

[firstthird]

Good luck. I agree that either one will be great. I had a similar choice back in 87, got into both USAFA and USNA, I picked USNA because I wanted to sail boats more than I wanted to ski. That is somewhat facetious but pretty accurate, when it comes to academics and all that, the schools are very close. I did consider the fact that out of USNA you really get 4 choices of what to do, either surface, sub, Marines, or fly. Just in case I didn't have my 20/20 anymore there was plenty more stuff to choose from that would have been rewarding (if maybe not as fun, I mean is being under water for 6 weeks really as satisfying as breaking out on top after doing a hard IMC takeoff and departure).
Your quals sound pretty good but it is stiff competition and having SATs 10 points above average is good but that average includes lots of guys that are heavily recruited for their sports abilities and their SAT scores may be a little lower than average since the acadamies use the 'whole man concept.' where they count all the stuff like eagle scout, class president, all state football player,etc, very heavily.
Also, ask your congressman about the alternate nominations. If I remember correctly they usually have a primary guy and then can put in more names that go into the pool of qualified guys and you get an at large spot, more or less. That was how I got in, I was tagged as my congressman's guy but he hadn't given me the primary nod. Your plan to reapply a year later is a good one if you don't get in first go around, it seemed like over half the guys were not straight out of high school but had come from the fleet, NAPS, prior college or a year of prep school.

 

[Leo R.]

Firstthird, Thanks for the reply. Actually, if anything my SAT worry me the most. I got a 1290 composite (680 Math, 610 Verbal). The SAT scores from my region are unusually low; I guess its probably due to the fact the the school system in this region doesn't emphasize standardized testing like the SAT and ACT as much as they do on the East Coast and other parts of the US.

I believe the my congressman just signs nominations and lets the academy decide who they want to chose. I don't think they select a primary, etc.

If you don't mind, all of you academy guys out there, is it possible you could tell me your SAT scores more or less? Man, I'm really stressing, I really need to calm down about this. I hate this waiting game but oh well. Anyhow, take care and thanks!

Leo Romero
El Paso, TX

 

[DarinFred]

AFA Cadet here

Hey dude, I can give you the gouge on the Air Force Academy. I was in your same situation as a Sr where I had the grades to get into both, but luckily the Air Force Academy was the only one to offer me an appointment due to medical problems in my history.

I came to the Academy with the fly or nothing attitude and it's helped me tremendously. I have been a Soaring Instructor Pilot here for about 2.5 years now and that experience will help me tremendously when I go to pilot training. As a Soaring IP, I've been teaching other cadets how to fly (yeah, just me and another cadet with 0 experience usually). I've had 2.5 years to develope an air sense that most others do not get. Believe me, it will help in pilot training. Plus, not only do you get to fly planes at the Air Force Academy (10x better than driving a boat at Annapolis), but I also got to jump out of them. I also got 3 F-16 rides my Sophomore summer. Dude, it freaking rocked.

So here's what you gotta do in order to get a fighter out of the Academy. First, have the right attitude. Don't accept anything other than a fighter. In order to do that, you are going to have to be the best. In order to be the best, you need to set yourself apart from other cadets. To do this, DO NOT pass up any opportunity here at the Academy. I haven't passed up a single opportunity yet, but I also have been going balls to the wall for 3.5 years, so I'm kind of burned out. It's true that you don't get a fighter until you finish pilot training, but set the right habits while you are here. Next, study your ass off. Grades mean more than anything here at the Academy. They will make or break you. It's competitive as hell, but if you are Pilot Qualified and in the top 85% of the class (not hard to do), then you will get a pilot slot. I had a 3.0 and I was ranked around 300 academically. With all my extra stuff, I moved up about 150 slots in the job selection order. True, pilot slot 548 is just as good as mine, but I take pride in kicking ass here. Lastly, the Academy IS IS IS better than ROTC. I've had about 10 friends get booted and 8 of them have excelled in ROTC.

Bad things:
1. The girls are ugly and most hot girls in Colorado Springs hate us. Oh well.
2. Most things here are a haze. Oh well...they are going to give you a $40 million fighter when you graduate (if you bust your ass)...might as well earn it.
3. You will think about quitting daily. I have 127 days left and I still can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. On the other hand, The last 1300 or so days have flown by!

Oh yeah, I got a 1210 on my SAT, so you should be good to go. Sorry for the hastily written messege that probably seems disorganized...it's been a long day. Feel free to email me at [email protected] with other questions. I'll give you the facts about the zoo. Good luck!

Jay

 

[Draginass]

Leo -
A bit of advice from an old USAF pilot after a great 22 year career.
Getting your military wings is a long hard road. From the bottom it looks unsurmountable. But the day your girlfriend/fiance/wife/mother pins them on your uniform will be about the proudest day in your life.

So far, you've done everything "right." Congrats. It looks to me like you're very competitive.

The best advice I can give you is to keep your focus and don't make any big mistakes . . . . like getting a DUI, letting a romatic relationship derail your direction, getting injured in some bonehead stunt, etc.

There's an old adage air combat . . . . . "He who wins is he who makes the fewest gross errors." Everybody makes errors, but keep them to a minimum in numbers and severity.

Best of luck.