Plane Reality

[partypilot1]

It is clear that there are many problems with the current aviation situation in United States. One thing seems to be clear, pay in indirectly proportional to pilot jobs available. Currently anyone with 500tt can get a job flying with some regional airline, this means that companies are hurting for warm bodies in the right seat. Pay seems to be at an all time low across the board as well. Capitalism shows that when an industry is hurting for a skilled worker, the need for that worker increases as well as the pay, nurses for example. Our current aviation industry is not reflecting this trend. Capitalism cyclic trend does not seem to be turning in the pilots favor, it seems to be stalled in a bad way. You can get a flying job anywhere but pay sucks everywhere, generally (excluding the favorites). I believe there must be a way to fix this situation. In keeping Capitalism tradition we can’t just limit the number of commercial licenses but could the FAA increase the 121 and 135 minimums? It seems like a quick fix but it just might shift the cyclic trend back on track. With fewer pilots available the airline would have to pay more for them, in turn some or many operators will not be able to afford to pay more for their pilots thus taking them out of the picture. Airline ticket prices will increase but it will be even across the board.



Another thought would be to set up some sort of board or panel of people that would administer a standardized test, after completing your commercial license, into your concentration of commercial flying. (Airlines, Corporate, Charter, and so on) It seems the lawyers BAR exam is set up similar to what I am thinking of.



I am just searching for possible answers to fix our pilot problems in the United States. I hope to generate some positive responses pros and cons and leave out the pilot bashing. I am sorry if the grammar and spelling sucks, it is late and I’m tired.

 

[rke44]

The real forces driving down the wages and QOL at airline jobs are the same ones there have always been. First off, there is the superficial cool factor of being able to pilot an aircraft with great skill to exotic locations where, once arrived, you proceed to lounge on the beach for 36-48 hours while partying with the scorching hot locals and having sex with all the supermodel FA's. Most of us who have been in the industry for some time realize this couldn't be farther from the truth. That urban myth keeps the incoming supply line of pilots wrapped around the corner block. While I admit that flying an airplane is better than wasting a life in some corporate cube any day of the week, the real answer lies elsewhere. I believe the problem exists with the industry standard seniority system ultimately. Think about it. In what other industry would employees accept huge (20, 30, 40%, ???) salary cuts every 10-15 years and still stick around? None come to mind. Very few captains and career FO's are willing to forfeit decades of seniority in order to start over at the bottom of a pay scale at some other carrier. Why would they? Their hand is forced. In the average office job if an individual was informed that they would be receiving a large reduction in pay and days off the job hunt would be begin the next day. That person would be able to take his/her experience to the next employer and be compensated appropriately. That is not the case in our industry. The airlines use this to their advantage everytime the market hits a bump in the road. The law of supply and demand dictates that when a bad weather season affects the national lettuce supply, for example, the price goes up and cost is passed to the consumer. As we all know, that seems to be the exact opposite in our line of work. Instead of the industry raising ticket prices to offset increased costs it relies on employee groups to bail them out through concessions because they know their employees' hands are tied by the seniority system. If we could, as a whole, change the airlines' ability to have us over the seniority barrel the scene would change dramatically. Am I talking about a national seniority system? I don't know. I've given much thought to the issue while watching the seniority systems of various companies ebb and flow leaving good hardworking employees out on the street after a stellar career. It just seems that the successful career of most people is based on education, work ethic, and experience. For us in the airlines, job security and career prosperity is dependent on getting hired at the right time by the right company. In other words, it is almost completely out of our hands. Something needs to change. The supply of pilots entranced with flying for a living is a constant so the changes need to take place within the system. Raising the minimums for commercial or ATP licenses has been cited, but I think that is only a temporary fix because after a few years the CFIs and 135 guys will meet the requirements regardless. The real fix would be for a pilot to be able to carry his/her experience to a new airline and receive comparable pay and benefits of the old employer. The airlines would hate to see this happen because it empowers the employee so much by giving him/her a choice. I don't have all the answers, but it is something that needs to happen if the trend is to be reversed.

 

[NookyBooky]

I don't have all the answers, but it is something that needs to happen if the trend is to be reversed.

It is a very simple issue. Pilots are willing to work for beans. They may whine (alot), and scream, and threaten to strike, but when push comes to shove they fly. People are bending over backwards to get any pilot job at any salary whether it be a regional job, a major job (is there such a thing anymore?), or a coporate job.

To sum up my theory: pilots are payed beans, because they're willing to work for beans. When pilots stop working for beans, they will be payed better.




NB

 

[NookyBooky]

The real forces driving down the wages and QOL at airline jobs are the same ones there have always been. First off, there is the superficial cool factor of being able to pilot an aircraft with great skill to exotic locations where, once arrived, you proceed to lounge on the beach for 36-48 hours while partying with the scorching hot locals and having sex with all the supermodel FA's. Most of us who have been in the industry for some time realize this couldn't be farther from the truth. That urban myth keeps the incoming supply line of pilots wrapped around the corner block. While I admit that flying an airplane is better than wasting a life in some corporate cube any day of the week, the real answer lies elsewhere. I believe the problem exists with the industry standard seniority system ultimately. Think about it. In what other industry would employees accept huge (20, 30, 40%, ???) salary cuts every 10-15 years and still stick around? None come to mind. Very few captains and career FO's are willing to forfeit decades of seniority in order to start over at the bottom of a pay scale at some other carrier. Why would they? Their hand is forced. In the average office job if an individual was informed that they would be receiving a large reduction in pay and days off the job hunt would be begin the next day. That person would be able to take his/her experience to the next employer and be compensated appropriately. That is not the case in our industry. The airlines use this to their advantage everytime the market hits a bump in the road. The law of supply and demand dictates that when a bad weather season affects the national lettuce supply, for example, the price goes up and cost is passed to the consumer. As we all know, that seems to be the exact opposite in our line of work. Instead of the industry raising ticket prices to offset increased costs it relies on employee groups to bail them out through concessions because they know their employees' hands are tied by the seniority system. If we could, as a whole, change the airlines' ability to have us over the seniority barrel the scene would change dramatically. Am I talking about a national seniority system? I don't know. I've given much thought to the issue while watching the seniority systems of various companies ebb and flow leaving good hardworking employees out on the street after a stellar career. It just seems that the successful career of most people is based on education, work ethic, and experience. For us in the airlines, job security and career prosperity is dependent on getting hired at the right time by the right company. In other words, it is almost completely out of our hands. Something needs to change. The supply of pilots entranced with flying for a living is a constant so the changes need to take place within the system. Raising the minimums for commercial or ATP licenses has been cited, but I think that is only a temporary fix because after a few years the CFIs and 135 guys will meet the requirements regardless. The real fix would be for a pilot to be able to carry his/her experience to a new airline and receive comparable pay and benefits of the old employer. The airlines would hate to see this happen because it empowers the employee so much by giving him/her a choice. I don't have all the answers, but it is something that needs to happen if the trend is to be reversed.

Good post, but it was harder than chit to read becuase it was one big mega-paragraph.

 

[greenpickle]

nicely done

The real forces driving down the wages and QOL at airline jobs are the same ones there have always been. First off, there is the superficial cool factor of being able to pilot an aircraft with great skill to exotic locations where, once arrived, you proceed to lounge on the beach for 36-48 hours while partying with the scorching hot locals and having sex with all the supermodel FA's. Most of us who have been in the industry for some time realize this couldn't be farther from the truth. That urban myth keeps the incoming supply line of pilots wrapped around the corner block. While I admit that flying an airplane is better than wasting a life in some corporate cube any day of the week, the real answer lies elsewhere. I believe the problem exists with the industry standard seniority system ultimately. Think about it. In what other industry would employees accept huge (20, 30, 40%, ???) salary cuts every 10-15 years and still stick around? None come to mind. Very few captains and career FO's are willing to forfeit decades of seniority in order to start over at the bottom of a pay scale at some other carrier. Why would they? Their hand is forced. In the average office job if an individual was informed that they would be receiving a large reduction in pay and days off the job hunt would be begin the next day. That person would be able to take his/her experience to the next employer and be compensated appropriately. That is not the case in our industry. The airlines use this to their advantage everytime the market hits a bump in the road. The law of supply and demand dictates that when a bad weather season affects the national lettuce supply, for example, the price goes up and cost is passed to the consumer. As we all know, that seems to be the exact opposite in our line of work. Instead of the industry raising ticket prices to offset increased costs it relies on employee groups to bail them out through concessions because they know their employees' hands are tied by the seniority system. If we could, as a whole, change the airlines' ability to have us over the seniority barrel the scene would change dramatically. Am I talking about a national seniority system? I don't know. I've given much thought to the issue while watching the seniority systems of various companies ebb and flow leaving good hardworking employees out on the street after a stellar career. It just seems that the successful career of most people is based on education, work ethic, and experience. For us in the airlines, job security and career prosperity is dependent on getting hired at the right time by the right company. In other words, it is almost completely out of our hands. Something needs to change. The supply of pilots entranced with flying for a living is a constant so the changes need to take place within the system. Raising the minimums for commercial or ATP licenses has been cited, but I think that is only a temporary fix because after a few years the CFIs and 135 guys will meet the requirements regardless. The real fix would be for a pilot to be able to carry his/her experience to a new airline and receive comparable pay and benefits of the old employer. The airlines would hate to see this happen because it empowers the employee so much by giving him/her a choice. I don't have all the answers, but it is something that needs to happen if the trend is to be reversed.

Nicely done. I couldnt agree more. We can still be unionized and have a national pay scale. My neighbor is a plumber and he is a union member. When he started out he got paid so much regardless of where he worked or who he knew, etc... Then after so many years he was able to move to a new level of pay after taking an exam. I think he called the levels apprentice, journeyman, master. The idea is that he can go work for any crew and recieve the pay that his experience and longevity entitle him to. As far as keeping people motivated to do a great job in a situation where everyone is treated the same will be taken care of by our friendly FAA.

 

[TinGoose1]

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!

 

[Mysteryofflight]

Am I talking about a national seniority system? I don't know. I've given much thought to the issue while watching the seniority systems of various companies ebb and flow leaving good hardworking employees out on the street after a stellar career.

There is a system of pay that would work in our given situation, only I shudder to think how it could be implemented into the airlines. Aside from the fact that it comes from the Government. Entry level college degree positions are placed into a pay scale, let's call it G6 ( I don't know what the actual designators are ). 6 being the 6th pay rate. 1-5 would be reserved for H.S. or GED workers. As experience and position improves the applicant moves up to higher pay rates eventually topping out at G16 after X number of years of service. The actual pay rates don't very company to company ( i.e. FBI to CIA ) A G16 gets the same pay at both companies. Thus if a Guppy captain were to be furloughed from company ABC and apply to company XYZ they could apply at their previous pay rate for a similar a/c.
There are several problems with this process in and of itself, let alone implementing it into the airlines with different a/c types and contracts. However, the idea works and would help to solve some of the problem associated with being released from an airline after many years of faithful service.
I'd love to hear your thoughts/feedback on this.

 

[rke44]

Nookybooky: To sum up my theory: pilots are payed beans, because they're willing to work for beans. When pilots stop in working for beans, they will be payed better.



Step back a moment and take a hard look at why pilots within the airline industry are willing to do so. I'm not talking about flight instructing or flying banners or some other stepping stone job, but the destination career.

I already gave you what I believe to be the real reason, but you failed to grasp it. The reason they're willing to work for decreasing amounts of beans is that they are scared to death (as they should be) of the company going out of business because it would mean that all of the time invested in the company was for nothing. They will be relegated to flying reserve on narrow bodies on the backside of the clock out of BFE at some new carrier. At the said new carrier that individual has a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting back to the previous QOL due to their back being against the wall of mandatory retirement. Now I know the standard rebuttal to this is that there are enough people beating down the door to work at the airlines to replace every living soul on the seniority list. This fact is true and nothing would be able to change it in my utopia, but the airlines' ability to use this against us would. They would not be able to muscle us because each pilot would have the choice to jump ship and accept comparable benefits and pay at the competing company. A universally recognized pay scale based on years of service, experience, and education would be the equivalent of us all working for the same company, but just for different departments. As Mysteryofflight pointed out implementation of this would be very difficult because those that have it good would only have something to lose, but they do not represent the majority of the pilot groups of the nation. The largest part of us would sacrifice a little in the short term in order to gain security in the long term. Now I know that most of us like to be optimists when evaluating the future of our employer, but history should be our guide. Do you think the pilots of Eastern, Pan Am, and Braniff ever thought that there job security was in question? Do you? You should and therefore be in favor of changing the market conditions. I know I am in doubt as I watch other professionals with less than half the required skills and qualifications in other fields have rock solid futures before them.

 

[NookyBooky]

Nookybooky: To sum up my theory: pilots are payed beans, because they're willing to work for beans. When pilots stop in working for beans, they will be payed better.

Step back a moment and take a hard look at why pilots within the airline industry are willing to do so. I'm not talking about flight instructing or flying banners or some other stepping stone job, but the destination career.

The sad fact of the matter is that the “destination career” is in just as bad of a downward spiral as the “stepping stone jobs.” Formerly, pilots would pay their dues at 20k a year jobs so that they could start at 90k with the majors and retire making 200k+. Now pilots pay their dues at 20k a year jobs so they can get a chance at a career where they might top out just above six figures after a decade or two on the job.

I already gave you what I believe to be the real reason, but you failed to grasp it. The reason they're willing to work for decreasing amounts of beans is that they are scared to death (as they should be) of the company going out of business because it would mean that all of the time invested in the company was for nothing. They will be relegated to flying reserve on narrow bodies on the backside of the clock out of BFE at some new carrier. At the said new carrier that individual has a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting back to the previous QOL due to their back being against the wall of mandatory retirement. Now I know the standard rebuttal to this is that there are enough people beating down the door to work at the airlines to replace every living soul on the seniority list. This fact is true and nothing would be able to change it in my utopia, but the airlines' ability to use this against us would. They would not be able to muscle us because each pilot would have the choice to jump ship and accept comparable benefits and pay at the competing company. A universally recognized pay scale based on years of service, experience, and education would be the equivalent of us all working for the same company, but just for different departments. As Mysteryofflight pointed out implementation of this would be very difficult because those that have it good would only have something to lose, but they do not represent the majority of the pilot groups of the nation. The largest part of us would sacrifice a little in the short term in order to gain security in the long term. Now I know that most of us like to be optimists when evaluating the future of our employer, but history should be our guide. Do you think the pilots of Eastern, Pan Am, and Braniff ever thought that there job security was in question? Do you? You should and therefore be in favor of changing the market conditions. I know I am in doubt as I watch other professionals with less than half the required skills and qualifications in other fields have rock solid futures before them.

No, I did not fail to grasp your argument. I actually agree with you. However, the bottom line is that pilots make up a labor market just like any other trade or profession. Labor is a commodity, and as long as there are more people willing and able to work than there are jobs available, then wages will continue to fall. Unions serve as market obstructions in much the same way that tariffs and quotas affect trade, and price floors and ceilings affect housing, and they often have their intended effect. However, those effects rarely last indefinitely and unfortunately the market almost always wins.

You stated what reasons you believed were responsible for pilots being willing to work for less and less, and I responded by attempting to state the mechanism by which those emotions manifest themselves in the form of lower compensation-albeit I said it in a very oversimplified manner, i.e. the way oversimplified working for beans theory.

Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing I’ve wanted more for most of my life than to fly for a living. However, I believe that pilots are professionals and should be paid as such, but as long as they are not paid as such I will continue to fly for fun and make my living in a field that is more lucrative.

 

[Lear70]

In keeping Capitalism tradition we can’t just limit the number of commercial licenses but could the FAA increase the 121 and 135 minimums?

Easy answer: why the hell would they? You have to remember who's pulling the strings. The FAA chief is an APPOINTED post, and the appointee sure as hell isn't going to bite the hand that feeds her (or him as the future case may be), and that hand sure as crap doesn't give a rat's a*s about pilots.


The FAA has LONG backed Air Carrier management on everything, rest and duty limitations and updates to those limitations being the current and most obvious example. I believe there's a HUGE safety factor in hiring 500 hour wonders, but that's a personal opinion that, fortunately (in the form of few accidents to compare), has little scientific data from accidents/incidents to back it up. Regardless, there's simply no reason for the FAA to act in the pilot's best interest.

It seems like a quick fix but it just might shift the cyclic trend back on track. With fewer pilots available the airline would have to pay more for them, in turn some or many operators will not be able to afford to pay more for their pilots thus taking them out of the picture. Airline ticket prices will increase but it will be even across the board.

Again, as others have stated, the only way to fix that is to dry up the supply, but any artificial limitation imposed usually comes back to haunt the market somehow down the road.

Another thought would be to set up some sort of board or panel of people that would administer a standardized test, after completing your commercial license, into your concentration of commercial flying. (Airlines, Corporate, Charter, and so on) It seems the lawyers BAR exam is set up similar to what I am thinking of.

Yes, but there are more lawyers than you can shake a stick at, more lawyers that fail and do something else for a living, and even more lawyers in the works. The factor that weeds them out is their skills as an attorney which varies from person to person - something that has little parallel to the aviation world as, by and large, our skillsets are relatively easily mastered with time and experience by nearly anyone with the intelligence and education to obtain the basic required ratings.

I am just searching for possible answers to fix our pilot problems in the United States. I hope to generate some positive responses pros and cons and leave out the pilot bashing. I am sorry if the grammar and spelling sucks, it is late and I’m tired.

Personally, I believe re-regulation of the industry is the only answer, not only for pilot pay issues but the entire losing scenario of airlines pricing their product UNDER their cost to manufacture it.

Deregulation was the worst thing that ever happened to the industry but in order to mandate wages as some are suggesting (which I'm not necessarily against), you'd have to re-regulate the entire system - there's simply no way to legally force an entire PUBLICALLY TRADED INDUSTRY to a GOVERNMENT STANDARD OF PAY under existing law.

ALPA's too scared and weak to force this kind of system within its union structures (the top 1/2 of the seniority list at every major carrier would rebel as it would probably bring the top salaries DOWN to increase the lower end salaries), and there's simply no other mechanism to accomplish what you're talking about.

 

[Crash Pad]

You are all missing the boat. We don't crash. That is the end of the story. Crashes are expensive. Crashes are more expensive than paying extra for experienced pilots. If inexperienced pilots don't crash then why hire experienced pilots and pay more? I'm not volunteering to "raise the bar on this one".

 

[labbats]

I would love to see a national seniority list, but what's to stop the airlines from avoiding hiring you after furlough? They could just as easily tap into a 3 year guy as a 30 year one.

 

[PilotSkyBlue]

I'm relatively young to this industry, so I know my comments should remain on par with my expierence. The national seniority idea seems like a good idea, to a further extent maybe goverment should regulate a minimum required salary in comparision to a total number of flight hours attained. For example, anyone with over 2500 flight hours be paid a minimum of $50, 5,000 hours $75K. Companies can still fluctuate above these salaries so as to entice the higher expierenced pilots, however companies would all have to raise ticket prices to offset this industry sandard. Though I do keep many reservations about government involvement in the industry maybe if some ticker fare regulation were in place alot of the struggiling companies wouldn't be faced with competing to drive down their ticket prices while also paying their bills.

 

[threegreen]

regulation of a minimum wage for pilots isn't something this industry or this country needs...

and to play devil's advocate; an airline with 10 pilot jobs that has 50 resumes can (and from a management standpoint, should) lower pay commesurate with the number of applicants.

Pt 135 already has minimum hrs in place for pic, pt 121 has no mins for FOs... but establishing mins would do nothing to increase pay; it would temporarily put a strain on hiring but as soon as joe cfi gets his hours he will be jumping over himself to get the job just as he is now... as he should be. The 'opportunities' are there so why not take them...

Plus as long as cfi wages are so low we will have this problem. What 1000hr $15/hr cfi wouldn't want to:
a) fly a jet
b) get a $5/hr pay increase

 

[DrewBlows]

It is a very simple issue. Pilots are willing to work for beans. They may whine (alot), and scream, and threaten to strike, but when push comes to shove they fly. People are bending over backwards to get any pilot job at any salary whether it be a regional job, a major job (is there such a thing anymore?), or a coporate job.

To sum up my theory: pilots are payed beans, because they're willing to work for beans. When pilots stop working for beans, they will be payed better.




NB

Ding, ding, ding...

We have a winner.

The abundance of pilots is not new, it's as old as the industry itself. There will always be way to many pilots for the positions. If I had to guess, I would say that the market would dictate that pilots make somewhere around $10 to $15 per hour. The companies would love to pay us minimum wage and think what turnover would be at wages this low, another bonus for the company. Sure there would be a lot more crashes, but insurance would pay for those and companies could afford to pay the higher rates with the extra money that's not going into pilots pockets and pensions.

There are really only two things that interfere with the market. Collective bargaining and current administration. As one person I have no power to negotiate with the company, as a matter of fact if they think that I am becomming to much trouble they can just let me go. Afterall, there is another pilot out there who can do the same job. If we negotiate as a group we gain the power to shut an airline down, which brings us nearly equal with management at the bargaining table. As I mentioned before the current administration can drive the market as well. Don't believe me, read about the early days of ALPA to see what would have happened if Dewey would have beat Truman. Ask a National pilot what would have happened to them if Nixon would have beat Kennedy in 1960.

I comes down to votes really. Do you support your union? Do you voluntier? Does your pilot group speak as a whole? Do you vote for candidates who are pro-labor? If you answered no to any of these questions you probably ought to look at yourself in the mirror when you ask why you make what you do, because no one else is going to do these things for you and management sure as hell isn't going to pay you any more than they have to.

I'll step off my soap-box now.

 

[Bryan D]

I don't believe labor unions are the answer. Labor unions have outlived their effectiveness. See: NAFTA. I don't believe goverment regulation of the airlines is the answer. The goverment is a terrible buisness partner. See: TVA.
The problem as I see it is supply and demand. It's a buyers market.

.

 

[DrewBlows]

I don't believe labor unions are the answer. Labor unions have outlived their effectiveness. See: NAFTA. I don't believe goverment regulation of the airlines is the answer. The goverment is a terrible buisness partner. See: TVA.
The problem as I see it is supply and demand. It's a buyers market.

.

How exactly do you propose that we could negotiate? Without a union, we have absolutely no bargaining power, we would be forced to accept whatever the company decided to give us, which would be precisely the smallest amount that they could get away with. And with no shortage of hungry pilots on the street waiting to take our jobs, we are expendable.

Fast forward a few years Bryan D has been the perfect airline pilot, he's always on time and has never scratched an airplane, so he thinks that maybe it's time for a raise. He and the rest of his pilot group voted ALPA off the property over a year ago because it had outlived it's effectiveness. In the mean time, the companies profits have started to slip so they have have instituted pay cuts across the board, and have gotten rid of any work rules not federally mandated in the name of efficiency. A few pilots have attempted to get ALPA back on property but they have been fired. Despite this Bryan D knows that he has been the perfect employee and decides to ask the boss for a raise.

Bryan D: Excuse me sir, do you have a minute?

CEO X: Sure son, what can I do for you?

Bryan D: Well sir, the thing is I just got married and have a baby on the way...

CEO X: That's great son, I'm a busy man can I help you?

Bryan D: Of course sir, well...I was just thinking that I've been a loyal employee at your company for three years now and thought that...maybe you could find it in your heart to give me a raise. Like I was saying I have a baby on the way and am having trouble paying the bills on my current salery.

CEO X: Son, times are tough...you know we all have to pitch in if we want the company to make it.

Bryan D: Um...didn't the company make record profits last quarter sir.

CEO X: Yes we did, but we didn't do it by just throwing money away on employees.

Bryan D: Well sir, I really could use the money...

CEO X: We all could son. Now you have a nice day.

Bryan D: Sir, I must insist...

CEO X: Oh, you insist...I see...well in that case I guess I'll just have to hire one of the 3,000 pilots who sent us a resume last month to take your position, I bet that they won't insist. You wouldn't want me to do that would you?

Bryan D: Of course not sir, never mind that I brought it up. I think you are doing an outstanding job, keep it up.

CEO X: Is that all?

Bryan D: Yes sir, sorry I bothered you...thank you for the job.

CEO X: That's what I thought.

 

[PilotSkyBlue]

Agreed government regulation of the industry is not the best thing, no doubt it will lead to corruption amongst politicans and companies. Perhaps setting a mandatory minimum regulated wage isn't the best tree to bark up either, it was just a passing thought. My logic in that idea is that companies would all, collectively have to meet a similar payroll which would give them no other option but to raise fare prices (I'd Hope). It is the same free trade principle that helps an industry grow that is hurting the aviation industry. Companies are trying to stimulate demand by driving down prices, while there is an excess of supply (i.e. pilots). Everyone wants to work their way into the industry so bad that some are even willing to pay for it. The aviation industry is like a mirage in the desert, it looks great from far away and you run your ass off trying to get to it only to find yourself groping some sand.

 

[cynic]

The REAL problem is that its just to easy to get an ATP or commercial license. Don't kid yourself, a monkey can fly a regional jet.

If you want the pay to go up, drain the supply. If you want to drain the supply make it harder to get an ATP. Require a master's degree, up the minimum hours; add a height weight ratio... You get the idea. And please spare the diatribe on how you don't need a degree to fly an airplane.

If you don’t believe monkeys can fly airplane just take a look here:

http://www.princessmonkey.com/monkeys/flying.html

 

[Pacific]

Was in an interview last week and at the end of the day those of us left standing were offered a job and a class date. When asked if we had any questions one of the guys (who has a current flying job) raised his hand with his nose turning brown and asked and I quote "is there anything I can do in the mean time... like work here in the building...I mean I can mow lawns or whatever..." I almost puked. We as professional pilots must have some pride in what we do for a living. It's great to be excited about a new position but please let's not act like they just did us some huge favor when offered a position, we've earned it right??. This guy would have taken the job for 65% of the pay and half the benefits and management knew it. It's hard to negotiate anything better for a pilot group when those attitudes are so evident.

 

[FN FAL]

Formerly, pilots would pay their dues at 20k a year jobs so that they could start at 90k with the majors...

Were you being facetious? I don't know of any major that started pilots out at 90K...if they did, then the majority that started out at 29-32K are getting bent over royally.

 

[FlyChicaga]

So much poorly aimed frustration about the current situation at the airlines. Why must we continue to be at each others throats? It's not the new hires right now at the regionals. It's partly everyones fault here for this trend. Particularly, management. They are running these companies into the ground, setting ticket prices at terribly low rates with fuel prices skyrocketing through the roof. We are all--even the low-paid regional folks--funding these airlines in bankrupcy with paycuts and reduced benefits.

All this talk of SJS: Give me a break! The pilots at the majors are folding like a house of cards, giving up pensions, pay, benefits, left and right. Why? Do they have SJS too, hoping to keep their jobs in this downturn? Why don't they just quit? It's because we all have so much invested in this career, we are hoping that short-term downs will turn around to long-term ups. Problem is, these short-term downs are stretching out longer and longer than expected.

The fact is, there have only been so many good paying jobs in aviation. Few and far between. There have always been more crap-paying jobs at the supplemental carriers, charters, corporate outfits, and smaller airlines. Yeah, there are your big legacies, and your Fortune 100 companies, but other than that, there haven't been many good-paying jobs. Problem is, all these me-me-me, now-now-now Generation Xers want these good paying jobs they were promised in the Flying Magazine ads for the past 10 years RIGHT NOW. We didn't have a strong sense of reality about life as a pilot, because the powers that be spoonfed us massive amounts of bullshit for years. So now we are "stuck" at the regionals, and are scapegoats.

Why are we scapegoats? Because we are flying routes that used to be mainline with regional aircraft. Whose fault is that? 1: Management. They set what aircraft fly what routes. 2: The pilots at the majors, trying to scope out the RJs instead of assimilating them into their companies. 3: The regional pilots, for continuing to think it's OK to fly these routes for BS pay... even taking concessions to continue doing so! We're also an easy target because of our position in the industry: The new guys. The majors are fortunate that they only must compete with each other. The regionals not only must compete in the market for their current brand, but they also must fight for feed. So regional management can pit pilot groups against one another. We can see it here, day after day. So much back and forth "my airline is better than yours" bullshit. We should be sticking together, but management has created the perfect inter-company rift.

Whatever it is, times are changing. Pilots now are moving from skilled stick-and-rudder operators with calm nerves and a relaxed demenor to Gen X Nintendo-type computer operators, always on edge and hyped up on Starbucks. It's easy to get on a computer now and complain about the industry, then take terms like "SJS" and "PFT" and throw them around like insults on the line to feel tough. If we'd just shut up for a minute, and start working together, then ALPA might be somewhat effective. It sure won't be effective--and you all will keep complaining about our union--without unity between the pilot groups. Especially at the regionals. It dumbfounds me to see people on here HAPPY at the demise of another airline. It's only a short time before you are next...

Sorry that you weren't at a major in three or four years after starting at a regional by 21. Sorry you aren't making $100,000 yet, by age 26. Guess what: That's how it was always going to work. You weren't going to get to UPS or FedEx or SWA by 26! You weren't guaranteed that quick EMB-170 upgrade. I've even fallen victim to the "woe is me" attitude every so often, wondering how long I'll be "stuck" at the regionals. You know what? I don't care. Just keep increasing pay and benefits, and start working to ensure some job security. We won't get either of those things fighting each other like this. So all you'll have is crappy pay, no benefits, and ever-decreasing job security while trying to fight for those major airline jobs that don't exist.

Seriously, how many of you really still believe that when you get 1000 PIC that SWA, FedEx, and JetBlue will be knocking at your door? Is that why you are taking these paycuts and only making $55,000 as an RJ Captain? So you can get to a major faster than your brethren at such-and-such other regional? Give me a break. Reality check: You'll be here for a while.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Wow, that's pretty cool. The board automatically changes bullshit to bullshoot.

 

[aspire]

Rke44 is 100% correct. Whether we realize it or not we have absolutely no bargining power when it comes to our jobs. That's why we are in the situation that we're in. Since we can't take our pay and benefits with us there is no incentive to leave. Any pilot with a decent amount of senority is not leaving his company, period. After all, who wants to take a pay cut AND start at the bottom of another airline. It's better to just take a pay cut, still have the senority and suffer. Employees in other industries and jobs start calling the head hunters and bailing ship the moment they're told to expect a pay cut and a loss of benefits. Yes, there are exceptions. The above does not apply to the "worker-class" who also have little employee bargining power and it does not apply during recessions. What is the solution to the senority system when we all do the exactly same job? Unfortunately, no one has an answer so far.

 

[Bryan D]

Rke44 is 100% correct. Whether we realize it or not we have absolutely no bargining power when it comes to our jobs. What is the solution to the senority system when we all do the exactly same job?

You know..maybe the union and the seniority system is the problem. I think you hit the nail on the head when comparing pilot jobs to other professions. Maybe since the airlines are reinventing themselves, or restructuring as they call it, maybe it's time the labor force reinvented themselves. If we keep on doing what we've always been doing we will keep on getting what we've always got..pay cuts, furloughs and lousy treatment. The labor union has no teeth and the seniority system has the pilots hog tied. Now that we've identified the problem all we have to do is find a solution. Who's going to bargain for us? We'll be at the mercy of the big bad airlines without ALPA. If ALPA is doing such a good job why are we all pssing and moaning? Maybe it's time to think outside the box.

 

[Lear70]

The labor union has no teeth and the seniority system has the pilots hog tied. Now that we've identified the problem all we have to do is find a solution. Who's going to bargain for us? We'll be at the mercy of the big bad airlines without ALPA. If ALPA is doing such a good job why are we all pssing and moaning? Maybe it's time to think outside the box.

You actually touched on the problem and I don't think you realized it.

ALPA has no teeth because of the Railway Labor Act.

If you get someone else to negotiate for you, you're still under the RLA and THEY will have no teeth as well.

That's the problem - the system itself isn't true "capitalism", because artificial constraints such as the bankruptcy laws and loopholes and the RLA will keep the labor / management / consumer relationship all fu*ked up.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Lots of good comments here. Fact is that you can get legally qualified to fly a jet for a 121 air carrier at age 23 with 1500 hours and be legally qualified at age 17 (or whatever the minimum age is to hold a commercial licence now) to be a first officer with 250 hours. Without a union the older pilots would never get much of a pay raise since they can be easily replaced with someone who meets the legal requirements.
While I'm not a big fan of unions I don't see how there would be much of a career for a pilot without one. A first year Captain and a 30 year Captain both do the same job and are legally qualified. The difference is one costs more. Which do you think airline management prefers?