Plane crash in Kentucky???

[A Squared]

Here's a good example of someone who is completely dependent on sophisticated navigation flying right into the side of a mountain .

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20021106X05441&key=1

He was counting on the magic to tell him if it was safe, and it didn't give him enough warning. Exactly why it let him down is a subject of discussion, but the bottom line is, it did let him dowm.

Now, if he had pulled out a sectional, and taken a look at the terrain, he would have seen that a direct turn toward Bethel puts you right into a ridgeline, but he just blasted off and trusted that the display would make up for his lack of situational awareness. Didn't work very well for him.

Besides, I don't know what's worse; glass panel pilots not being proficient at old school navigation; or the old school boys and girls not having a clue how to operate glass, and won't dare admit it. I think we're somewhere in the middle of all this, right now.

I think it should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of sense thet a glass dependent pilot who has never flown traditionally and is completely reliant on his glass to get him through the sky is much much worse than someone who is adept at establishing good situational awarenesss through traditional means but who has never worked with glass.

One of the aircraft my company operates is a (realatively) modern glass cockpit aircraft. I've jumpseated a couple of times and it's not rocket sience, in fact it's pretty simple. sure I don't know which buttons to push to make it do what I want, but that's just system specific training, as far as looking at it and knowing where I am, it's not tough. I doubt that someone who had learned to fly with all that help could step into my round dial cockpit and figure our where they were based on the raw data.

It's the difference between not having been trained on a specific system, and lacking fundamental skill essential to aviation.

There's a world of difference, and if you're unsure which is worse, you have a lot to learn.


Again, I want to reiterate that I am not putting down the technology. I am however, putting down the notion that you keep bleating, that we should skip learning basic airmanship because there are machines that can do it for us.

It's like insiting that we should drop basic arithmentic from elememtary education because we have reliable calculators now.

 

[DC4boy]

To the GPS touting guy; How 'bout situational awareness first?

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

And, why would you say that? Perhaps if it's one of those old school low resolution, narrow field of view GPS's that draw a line on an empty background, then it's possible.

However, with today's terrain depicting, visual terrain warning, and audio terrain warning GPS's in high resolution color, the chances are most likely a lot less. And with 3D virtual terrain presentations, the chances will drop even farther.

Just think, someday, even the modern airliner cockpit might have uplinked XM Satellite type weather, dipicting weather for hundreds of miles, instead of the limitations imposed by radar.

I know of several airline pilots who are jealous right now; and I know many retired commercial and military pilots who would no longer care to fly long cross country flights without XM weather. We're all in that older age, high performance experimental/homebuilt crowd.

Yep, once they've seen it, and used it, they certainly know the value. This is fact! I'm also surprised by how many high tech glass panels go into these kitbuilt airplanes. But if you have money, and the interest to learn how to use them, then why not?

A statistic waiting to happen.
What do you do when your precious moving map fails?
Since you have no practice with situational awareness using
normal instruments, you hit a mountain.

CE

 

[epic!]

i dont think this has been posted yet, but here are some shots of the crj

http://airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=N431CA&distinct_entry=true

 

[mtrv]

A statistic waiting to happen.
What do you do when your precious moving map fails?
Since you have no practice with situational awareness using
normal instruments, you hit a mountain.

CE

Since you've been following along with a sectional in hand, on the seat, knee board, whatever; you know exactly where you are, the second the GPS fails. Then just make sure your backup GPS is still right on target. You DO have a backup, as well as extra batteries, and a hand-held transceiver, don't you?

Of course, using high failure rates in GPS's as an excuse to not use them is pure fiction. The chances of an out of service navaid are greater, except for NOTAM areas where it's stated that the GPS may become inaccurate.

I suppose I'll just have to start a set of links to all those flight into terrain accidents, where situational awarness was lost, and no high res GPS with terrain features was on board. The listings go on and on and on. Yes, awarness could have been regained in a second, but not when a GPS unit isn't to be seen. A good moving map display on an MFD would probably prevent loss of awarness, even when you didn't realize it was lost.

Maybe I'll just start the links with Frank Sinatra's mother's aircraft, that hit a mountain around 50 years ago. These pilot's didn't realize they were lost either! Then there is Reba's band, the Ron Brown 737, the AA 757, and, and

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Since you've been following along with a sectional in hand, on the seat, knee board, whatever; you know exactly where you are, the second the GPS fails. Then just make sure your backup GPS is still right on target. You DO have a backup, as well as extra batteries, and a hand-held transceiver, don't you?

Of course, using high failure rates in GPS's as an excuse to not use them is pure fiction. The chances of an out of service navaid are greater, except for NOTAM areas where it's stated that the GPS may become inaccurate.

I suppose I'll just have to start a set of links to all those flight into terrain accidents, where situational awarness was lost, and no high res GPS with terrain features was on board. The listings go on and on and on. Yes, awarness could have been regained in a second, but not when a GPS unit isn't to be seen. A good moving map display on an MFD would probably prevent loss of awarness, even when you didn't realize it was lost.

Maybe I'll just start the links with Frank Sinatra's mother's aircraft, that hit a mountain around 50 years ago. These pilot's didn't realize they were lost either! Then there is Reba's band, the Ron Brown 737, the AA 757, and, and

Good luck...

CE

 

[lawfly]

Runway 26 unlighted, apparently.
The RJ is glass, isn't it? I don't really think this is a glass panel issue, or even a GPS issue. The practice of setting one's heading bug to runway heading, a standard pre-takeoff practice at some operations, comes to mind. There are heading bugs on full glass panels, too. Whatever your thoughts about glass, GPS, etc., there will probably be more attention paid now to heading indicators/bugs on line-up.
Of course, we don't know all the facts.
RIP.

 

[Say Again Over]

I now only fly out of a hand full of airports, most are the simplified layouts as in the new Hong Kong airport with a four parallel runways, terminal in the middle, how many little fields do the RJ's drivers have to be familiar with, new taxi procedures within the last week, very early morning and a complicated airport layout, tough conditions for anyone.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Since you've been following along with a sectional in hand, on the seat, knee board, whatever; you know exactly where you are, the second the GPS fails. Then just make sure your backup GPS is still right on target. You DO have a backup, as well as extra batteries, and a hand-held transceiver, don't you?

Of course, using high failure rates in GPS's as an excuse to not use them is pure fiction. The chances of an out of service navaid are greater, except for NOTAM areas where it's stated that the GPS may become inaccurate.

I suppose I'll just have to start a set of links to all those flight into terrain accidents, where situational awarness was lost, and no high res GPS with terrain features was on board. The listings go on and on and on. Yes, awarness could have been regained in a second, but not when a GPS unit isn't to be seen. A good moving map display on an MFD would probably prevent loss of awarness, even when you didn't realize it was lost.

Maybe I'll just start the links with Frank Sinatra's mother's aircraft, that hit a mountain around 50 years ago. These pilot's didn't realize they were lost either! Then there is Reba's band, the Ron Brown 737, the AA 757, and, and

There is a special advanced piece of equipment in my airplane that helps prevent departure on the wrong runway.

It's called a compass.

CE

 

[ksu_aviator]

Since you've been following along with a sectional in hand, on the seat, knee board, whatever; you know exactly where you are, the second the GPS fails. Then just make sure your backup GPS is still right on target. You DO have a backup, as well as extra batteries, and a hand-held transceiver, don't you?

Of course, using high failure rates in GPS's as an excuse to not use them is pure fiction. The chances of an out of service navaid are greater, except for NOTAM areas where it's stated that the GPS may become inaccurate.

I suppose I'll just have to start a set of links to all those flight into terrain accidents, where situational awarness was lost, and no high res GPS with terrain features was on board. The listings go on and on and on. Yes, awarness could have been regained in a second, but not when a GPS unit isn't to be seen. A good moving map display on an MFD would probably prevent loss of awarness, even when you didn't realize it was lost.

Maybe I'll just start the links with Frank Sinatra's mother's aircraft, that hit a mountain around 50 years ago. These pilot's didn't realize they were lost either! Then there is Reba's band, the Ron Brown 737, the AA 757, and, and

What about last week when the entire south east was NOTAM'd as unreliable GPS coverage? I have yet to see an entire region of VOR's drop offline.

Learn the basic six...F*uck the new Sh*t. When you can fly a partial panel NDB approach in turbulence with an engine out, then you can move up to a GPS. Uh....you might want to try that in a twin.

I'm really going to miss NDB's, they are the best navaid out there.

 

[Fugawe]

There is a special advanced piece of equipment in my airplane that helps prevent departure on the wrong runway.

It's called a compass.

CE

Yeah, they had one. But.......something happened that led to these guys missing that check. Certainly they'd been in similar situations dozens, if not hundreds of times.

We've all been in a 'spot' where we, or the other pilot, or controller, or wingman caught something that would've made a HUGE difference.

I've lost too many friends and acquaintances in crashes, that were good pilots, for me to ever think 'it can't happen to me'.

What sequence of events, or comm error, or cockpit distraction, or other factors, etc led these 2 to roll down Rwy 26? That is what we need to know.

Fugawe

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Yeah, they had one. But.......something happened that led to these guys missing that check. Certainly they'd been in similar situations dozens, if not hundreds of times.

We've all been in a 'spot' where we, or the other pilot, or controller, or wingman caught something that would've made a HUGE difference.

I've lost too many friends and acquaintances in crashes, that were good pilots, for me to ever think 'it can't happen to me'.

What sequence of events, or comm error, or cockpit distraction, or other factors, etc led these 2 to roll down Rwy 26? That is what we need to know.

Fugawe

I suppose I came across a bit harsh. i meant mistakes can happen even with the best glass suite. I've made mistakes too, a few involving distraction.

CE

 

[ksu_aviator]

I now only fly out of a hand full of airports, most are the simplified layouts as in the new Hong Kong airport with a four parallel runways, terminal in the middle, how many little fields do the RJ's drivers have to be familiar with, new taxi procedures within the last week, very early morning and a complicated airport layout, tough conditions for anyone.

I was in LEX little more than a week before the accident. I managed to taxi to the runway, single pilot while copying my clearance and completing checklists in my 15th hour of duty and 7th hour of flight time. That is no joke either nor is it an exageration. When I came to 26, there was a big red sign saying 26. I passed that, took off on 22 and went on my merry way. It was not confusing and it was my first time there in 3 years or more.

I don't say all that to point out how cool I am cause I did it with out a problem. I made that statement to illustrate that the taxi route was not complicated and that making excuses for them is not going to do anyone any good. They screwed up PERIOD. There is no excuse, no reason, no logical explination that is more fitting. And there is no technollogy that would have saved them. The lights where off on that runway, yet they didn't question tower. The heading was obviously wrong, yet they ignored that. The signage was clearly visible, yet they some how missed that. They ignored or missed many warning signs and one more sign probably would not have changed the outcome. They had their heads shoved so far up where the sun don't shine that you could have dropped a nuke on the other end of the runway and they would have still departed.

Are you mad that I said that? Good, use that anger to make sure you don't become these guys. Be motivated by the fact that if you screw up some arm chair pilot like me will be out there telling people you screwed up.

I'm sure they where good people that just did the wrong thing at the wrong time. However, no matter how good of a pilot or person they where, the truth has to be recognized so that every one else will learn from it. I don't mean to be harsh, but we can't make excuses for them. That just does not serve aviation well.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Yes, I'm quite pissed at everyone who believes that GPS techology should come in second place to old school. I see it all the time here.

GPS is great when it works correctly.

That is not always the case though. I have had several times when a GPS system failed or lost its bearings in the middle of an approach. Not talking about the cheaper G/A stuff either. Air carrier quality FMS based systems that just "forget" where they are from time to time.

Additionally GPS and FMS systems can actually be a hinderance in some cases, NY airspace comes to mind, 5 route changes in 15 minutes in heavy weather etc....several times I have "abandoned" the new glass stuff for a bit in favor of the quicker to tune and change vor to meet ATC's changing needs. The last thing you need is your head down trying to figure out how to spell some fix or typing instead of flying. If we always got to fly what our clearance says the GPS would be perfect....

No navigation system is perfect, anybody that relies 100% on any one system will eventually end up dead, it is just a matter of time. Situational awareness is gained through the use of all availiable means. Glass is great, but it is not the holy grail of navigation, just like any other system it has it's own quirks that can get you if you do not keep it honest with other systems.

 

[mtrv]

Learn the basic six...F*uck the new Sh*t. When you can fly a partial panel NDB approach in turbulence with an engine out, then you can move up to a GPS. Uh....you might want to try that in a twin.

I've found that many retired high hour commercial pilots that I know, or am aware of through internet forums, seem to have quite an interest in the new stuff, and much less with the old. Maybe it's a "been there, done that" mentality. I don't know, and it's just an observation.

Much has to do with experimental/homebuilt/kitplanes, such as Lancairs, RV's, Rockets, F1's, etc.. Some of these people put a lot of dollar$ into their panels.
Six pac steam gauge panels are constantly being replaced with high tech glass setups, along with solid state A/P's.

Like I said, just an observation, but it's true, never the less.

 

[GoingHot]

Yes, I'm quite pissed at everyone who believes that GPS techology should come in second place to old school. I see it all the time here.

I bet a lot of people wish these guys had used some of that old school stuff, instead of GPS.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AAB0601.htm

 

[mtrv]

I bet a lot of people wish these guys had used some of that old school stuff, instead of GPS.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AAB0601.htm

This particular NTSB report is used as an excellent example of old GPS versus new GPS with terrain mapping displays. In fact, after this accident, this company's aircraft were equipped with new terrain mapping displays, as can be seen by reading farther down.

With the future of synthetic 3D terrain displays in IMC conditions, coupled with GPS for exact positioning, this type of flight into terrain accident could easily be avoided. Old school won't even get close.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

This particular NTSB report is used as an excellent example of old GPS versus new GPS with terrain mapping displays. In fact, after this accident, this company's aircraft were equipped with new terrain mapping displays, as can be seen by reading farther down.

With the future of synthetic 3D terrain displays in IMC conditions, coupled with GPS for exact positioning, this type of flight into terrain accident could easily be avoided. Old school won't even get close.

No doubt that the new stuff is very good at enhancing situational awareness. My problem is when pilots become dependant on it. I still do some instructing on the side, mostly to friends or business type peeps that are moving into higher performance airplanes. I worked with a guy a couple of years ago that bought a nice twin with all the goodies. The problem was he could fly instruments as long as it all worked, as soon as I would fail a map or gps he was completely lost and was all over the sky.

Sure the new stuff is reliable....but not 100%. Twice I had a Primary screen fail in flight, once was at 900 feet on an ILS in a snow storm, the screen (Honeywell) went tie dye on me, faded out into a Grateful Dead T shirt. Old school knowledge will not quit on you....as long as you know what you are doing. 90% of the BFR or instrument comp clients that I work with that are used to GPS maps and all the goodies can barely keep the airplane upright on partial panel...much less shoot an approach with it. A great deal of pilots out there now do not have the skills to deal with large electrical or equipment failures. In the airline world the most common failure that occurs is avionics based. Over the years I have had 3 piston engines, and one jet engine fail, and a rollback to idle on a second. I cannot even come close to figuring out how many autopilots, radios, screens, lights, gps's, INS's etc have crapped out on me.

The simple test to see if you are too dependant on moving maps? Shut off the map and have somebody give you a non published hold, if you have to resort to drawing pictures on a scrap piece of paper you have situational awareness issues you need to correct. Another one is to have somebody fail the map and then have you execute a missed approach to the hold point...that is another one that really screws with the glass cripple set. Both are cases that can kill you if you have to take lots of time to figure out. I am just as guilty as the next guy at sometimes letting myself get too glassy eyed. A couple of furloughs and switching back and forth between glass and steam gauges several times now has kept me from getting too bad, at least it made me realize just how much glass can make you complacent about your basic scan and skills.

As I said, glass is great, I love it. We just need to remember how to fly without it too, because if it is electronic or mechanical it will fail, only a matter of when. (Murphy states that it always quits at the worst possible time too!! )

 

[Fugawe]

I suppose I came across a bit harsh. i meant mistakes can happen even with the best glass suite. I've made mistakes too, a few involving distraction.

CE

We all have, and we will. Just hope there are enough layers of knowledge, safety, experience, and eyeballs watching the next time you/I/we face the next 'bump' in the road.

I've flown lots of glass, lots of steam gauges, INS, GPS, Omega, moving map, worthless map, GCA, GCI, clock-map-ground, been lost, been found, been lucky. Nothing beats SA (situatuational awareness). Know where you are and where you're pointed, and where you want to go. If you ain't ahead of the jet, it's ahead of you.

Never get rushed, if you are -- stop and 'wind the clock' (take a breath and 2nd look). If you have to hurry and feel the hair on the back of your neck standing up.....heed that warning. That's the time you take a 2nd and 3rd peek.

Fugawe
....but for the grace of God go I...........................anyone can have a mishap.

 

[Fugawe]

Knowing how to spell helps too..........'situational' was intended word in last post.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Knowing how to spell helps too..........'situational' was intended word in last post.

mabie a GMS/GPS you have saves you from that spelling disaster.
:laugh:

CE

 

[Say Again Over]

Be motivated by the fact that if you screw up some arm chair pilot like me will be out there telling people you screwed up.
by KSU

Captain on the Metro is anything but an arm chair pilot, especially if you are single pilot! You tend not to assume things are being handled by the other crew member when there isn't one, lol. Today I operated four legs and I tried to pay attention to everything that took place prior to takeoff, for my SOP we check instruments right after we get the confirmation that the cabin is secure, now I have a real pretty picture of a runway on my ND and do you think that I once looked at this display prior to takeoff, the answer would be no, why, because in my mind, I knew exactly where I was. As far as the airport layout, what were the actual taxi instructions, via A, or A-6, IMHO if you have to utilize one runway to get to another, it's not exactly the best situation.

My other opinion is if ATC would have done the job properly there wouldn't have been an accident.

Flame suit on.

 

[2dumb2drive]

I was in LEX little more than a week before the accident. I managed to taxi to the runway, single pilot while copying my clearance and completing checklists in my 15th hour of duty and 7th hour of flight time. That is no joke either nor is it an exageration. When I came to 26, there was a big red sign saying 26. I passed that, took off on 22 and went on my merry way. It was not confusing and it was my first time there in 3 years or more.


While this is impressive, i usually do all that while eating my mourning dounut, drinking a fresh cup of hot coffee, scratching my ever increasingly fat ass, and drooling over the long slender legs of the young lady sitting in the back.

 

[2dumb2drive]

However, i seem to be the only one that doesn't know how to use the quote feature

 

[erj-145mech]

And what kind of donut was that?