Piper Comanche - Good Buy?

[User546]

I've currently got my eyes on a 1959 Piper Comanche 250, and I was wondering what everyone's opinion is on it. Also, if any owners out there can give me your thoughts, as well as what I can expect to spend on upkeep and maintenance would be great.

The airplane has 5100 total time, 100 hours on a new engine (250 hp), 200 hours on a new 3-bladed prop, good paint, good interior, manual gear, IFR certified, and owner says burns about 12 gph (is this realistic?).

Thanks in advance...

 

[Ill Mitch]

I've currently got my eyes on a 1959 Piper Comanche 250, and I was wondering what everyone's opinion is on it. Also, if any owners out there can give me your thoughts, as well as what I can expect to spend on upkeep and maintenance would be great.

The airplane has 5100 total time, 100 hours on a new engine (250 hp), 200 hours on a new 3-bladed prop, good paint, good interior, manual gear, IFR certified, and owner says burns about 12 gph (is this realistic?).

Thanks in advance...

I don't have a lot of time in a Comanche, but what little I do I was pretty happy. I ferried one from the Los Angeles area to Seattle for a guy. I was able to get about 155 kts true on about 11 GPH. Not bad. It has a nice, solid feel to the controls and super easy to land.

When I picked it up, I did not have any Comanche time and the seller of the aircraft goes "hmm...would you like to go up for about an hour and get checked out?" I looked in a mirror, checked myself out and I looked damn good and said "All checked out, ready to go!". Hopped in and went.


Didn't fly it IFR, but I imagine it would be good for that.

 

[MFRskyknight]

I too have a little time in a Comanche...just about 4 hours, and the one I used to get my HP signoff in was the same year and model, 1959 PA24-250.

I love to fly that airplane. Very solid feel to it, I think 11-12 gph in cruise and trues at about 150 kt. Piece of cake to land, even my first time flying it. Pretty docile, no real disappointments that I could discern. Hope this helps some.

MFR

 

[dragland]

The owner at the FBO I teach at has a 63 model with tip tanks and the 250 engine. I will PM you with his e-mail and he can tell you all the info you would ever want to know, he's 8up with his and I have several hours in it and I can say it flies VERY nice and has a 5.5 hour endurance. Very easy to land and a decent TAS. Only drawback is the seating (4 pax) but his weight and balance works out to 2 guys and 2 girls (no heffers) with full fuel.
Donnie

 

[Say Again Over]

Good airplane!

 

[AlbieF15]

My understanding is the Loch Haven plant put a VERY good coat of rust proofing--very corosion resistant airframe.

I was looking for a 260 C in my price range (needed 5 seats) but wasn't having much luck. Found my Rangemaster instead--but still think Comanches are a good plane.

Go to Comanche Society on web--they've got a very active owners group that can answer your questions.

 

[User546]

Thanks for all the information so far (and the referral dragland). I came across the Comanche Society tonight, but haven't had a chance to spend anytime on the site yet.

Is it a reasonable belief that these airplanes should hold their value well over the next few years?

EDIT: I've since had a chance to look at the Comanche Society website, and any links of any usefulness are "Members Only" and they want $64 to signup - NO THANKS!!
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[banned username 1]

Yep- it's a rare day when all of the replies are in agreement, but this is one. The Commanche was/is a great airplane. It was built very solid and as Albie said, the interior corrosion proofing was good.

As far as the time on your particular airplane, that's about in the middle of the pack for PA-24s anymore. The engine time is good too. Of course, we don't know what the asking price is. Also, is the panel the old style or has it been updated?

As far as the fuel consumption, your figure is a little low. I think a number around 16 is a little more realistic. While I have a lot of time in 180s and 260s, I don't in the 250. I do know that I used to get the 235 engine in the PA-28 down to about 13-14 gph if you really worked at it.

The manual gear you're reporting has me a little stumped. It was always a worm-drive jackscrew type affair on all of the ones I flew (and watch your feet under the assist handle when it comes down- ouch!).

Of all the single engine production airplanes out there, if I couldn't have a straight-tail Bonanza, a really nice C model 260 Commanche would be my choice. You buy it right and you can't go wrong.

Good luck.

 

[Say Again Over]

64 bucks is cheap if they can tell you what to look out for.

 

[midlifeflyer]

EDIT: I've since had a chance to look at the Comanche Society website, and any links of any usefulness are "Members Only" and they want $64 to signup - NO THANKS!!

You can complain about that or you can ask.

Send a message to the admin. Tell him that you are looking into purchasing a Comanche and ask for "trial" access to he member forums.

That's what I did before I bought into the 1958 250 that I fly now.

BTW, I love the airplane. Flies great, super stability, and it's performance out here in Colorado is great. But I'm in my first year in it and I still don't know enough about the maintenance issues to be able to answer your questions intelligently.

 

[Vector4fun]

I did my Comm/Inst ride in a 180 hp Commanche. From what I recall, some of the airframe parts can be difficult to get. One of the renters dropped the 180 in from about 20' and cracked a main gear casting. Those were tough to find even in 1975. But it was a sweet airplane anyway.

If you're serious about a Commanche, the $64 is probably the best money you may spend on the bird. I pay a bit less for the Cessna Pilot's Association, but the info there probably saves me at least a couple hundred a year on maint. Having all those service bulletins and knowledgeable A&Ps and owners to answer questions for free is definately worth the dues money.

 

[BGSM]

Comanche

I never flew one but did some research and decided not to buy when i was looking for a complex for my school. AOPA or Flying Magazine did a an article on one. Over said it wasn't a bad airplane but expensive to maintain compared to similiar types and had a lot of AD's. Do a search for the article, hope this helps

 

[clickclickboom]

Have lots of Comanche Time

I owned a beautiful 260 C until 7 months ago when i upgraded to a 310.

They are awesome planes, All of them. The 250 is probably the best bang for the buck.. The earlier models had a basic ventilation system and the panels had avionics on the far left and rt side.. Many have upgraded to an STC's single piece with centerstack.

Sounds like you have a good motor and prop.. Airframe of 5100 is nothing for the comance. I have flown one with 15,000 hrs on it!!

Major possible Expenses:

The landing gear. The electro mechanical gear in my opinion was the best piper had to offer. BUT there is a 1000 hr gear ad and many mechanics dont fully understand the airplane to begin with. I suggest spending the $3000 from webco and rebushing the gear completely. Go out and buy the pre made wiring harness for the gear and upgrade to the teflon push pull conduits. That way your gear will be PERFECT and provide you years of service.

TAIL: Torque Tube and bolts.. Make sure you have the right tail bolts in. I would highly suggest pulling the stab off and inspecting the torque tube for corrosion. It is overlooked and vulnerable.. Spend the 10 hrs of labor and inspect the tube. I have seen one that had stripper get caught in there and the tube was completely corroded to the point that it was falling apart. ( yes this is basically the spar for the stab). While you are back there change out the bearings and bolts.

PARTS: Absolutely no problem.. www.webco.com makes nearly every wear part you could need for the plane.. Anything else is available from the junk yards. Plus numerous other vendors

Never once in 1500 hrs hours of ownership did i have a problem getting a part


Make sure you inspect the nose gear real close. They are easy to land flat or on the nose..

I am assuming you meant manual flaps?

PERFORMANCE: Every day of the week 150kts, 6000-7000 ft 13.5 gph.

The plane will land and fly better at gross then it does light.

Regardless of what anyone else says with proper technique you can fly this bird out of 1500 ft grass runway no problem.

Use top of the white arc 120mph for gear not 150 as per the book and you will save your gear doors ( warping, cracking) and motor.

By the way each piece of the plane was alodined and zinc chromated BEFORE assembly!

Most importantly check the insurance.. Many carriers wont write a plane that old.. Plus there have been numerous accidents and the insurers are gun shy.

FYI: I was paying $3150 for $130,000 hull with a smooth million in liability 1969 C Model

My 310 is $3200 $170,000 hull smooth mil
Hope this helps...

 

[midlifeflyer]

Regardless of what anyone else says with proper technique you can fly this bird out of 1500 ft grass runway no problem.

It wasn't 1500 or grass, but it was a semi-soft gravel field 2600' long at 4000 msl (density altitude higher). no problem at all.

 

[Peanut gallery]

Aw now you have done it

You let the secret out of the bag. I have owned a few PA-24's, belief it or not my favorite is the 180, excellent gas/mile. Be carefull to inspect the landing gear bushings and corrosion on the gear. No big deal if you find some but re-bush the gear pretty early in the game, this will save you heartache in the long run, also will make the old girl track nicely down the runway. If you are going to keep it outside make sure the rubber seals are snug on both doors and the window.

A case of oil in the baggage compartment makes a PA-24 handle like a dream.

 

[clickclickboom]

CORRECTION: http://www.webcoaircraft.com/

I owned a beautiful 260 C until 7 months ago when i upgraded to a 310.

They are awesome planes, All of them. The 250 is probably the best bang for the buck.. The earlier models had a basic ventilation system and the panels had avionics on the far left and rt side.. Many have upgraded to an STC's single piece with centerstack.

Sounds like you have a good motor and prop.. Airframe of 5100 is nothing for the comance. I have flown one with 15,000 hrs on it!!

Major possible Expenses:

The landing gear. The electro mechanical gear in my opinion was the best piper had to offer. BUT there is a 1000 hr gear ad and many mechanics dont fully understand the airplane to begin with. I suggest spending the $3000 from webco and rebushing the gear completely. Go out and buy the pre made wiring harness for the gear and upgrade to the teflon push pull conduits. That way your gear will be PERFECT and provide you years of service.

TAIL: Torque Tube and bolts.. Make sure you have the right tail bolts in. I would highly suggest pulling the stab off and inspecting the torque tube for corrosion. It is overlooked and vulnerable.. Spend the 10 hrs of labor and inspect the tube. I have seen one that had stripper get caught in there and the tube was completely corroded to the point that it was falling apart. ( yes this is basically the spar for the stab). While you are back there change out the bearings and bolts.

PARTS: Absolutely no problem.. www.webco.com makes nearly every wear part you could need for the plane.. Anything else is available from the junk yards. Plus numerous other vendors

Never once in 1500 hrs hours of ownership did i have a problem getting a part


Make sure you inspect the nose gear real close. They are easy to land flat or on the nose..

I am assuming you meant manual flaps?

PERFORMANCE: Every day of the week 150kts, 6000-7000 ft 13.5 gph.

The plane will land and fly better at gross then it does light.

Regardless of what anyone else says with proper technique you can fly this bird out of 1500 ft grass runway no problem.

Use top of the white arc 120mph for gear not 150 as per the book and you will save your gear doors ( warping, cracking) and motor.

By the way each piece of the plane was alodined and zinc chromated BEFORE assembly!

Most importantly check the insurance.. Many carriers wont write a plane that old.. Plus there have been numerous accidents and the insurers are gun shy.

FYI: I was paying $3150 for $130,000 hull with a smooth million in liability 1969 C Model

My 310 is $3200 $170,000 hull smooth mil
Hope this helps...

http://www.webcoaircraft.com/

 

[clickclickboom]

CORRECTION: http://www.webcoaircraft.com/

I owned a beautiful 260 C until 7 months ago when i upgraded to a 310.

They are awesome planes, All of them. The 250 is probably the best bang for the buck.. The earlier models had a basic ventilation system and the panels had avionics on the far left and rt side.. Many have upgraded to an STC's single piece with centerstack.

Sounds like you have a good motor and prop.. Airframe of 5100 is nothing for the comance. I have flown one with 15,000 hrs on it!!

Major possible Expenses:

The landing gear. The electro mechanical gear in my opinion was the best piper had to offer. BUT there is a 1000 hr gear ad and many mechanics dont fully understand the airplane to begin with. I suggest spending the $3000 from webco and rebushing the gear completely. Go out and buy the pre made wiring harness for the gear and upgrade to the teflon push pull conduits. That way your gear will be PERFECT and provide you years of service.

TAIL: Torque Tube and bolts.. Make sure you have the right tail bolts in. I would highly suggest pulling the stab off and inspecting the torque tube for corrosion. It is overlooked and vulnerable.. Spend the 10 hrs of labor and inspect the tube. I have seen one that had stripper get caught in there and the tube was completely corroded to the point that it was falling apart. ( yes this is basically the spar for the stab). While you are back there change out the bearings and bolts.

PARTS: Absolutely no problem.. www.webco.com makes nearly every wear part you could need for the plane.. Anything else is available from the junk yards. Plus numerous other vendors

Never once in 1500 hrs hours of ownership did i have a problem getting a part


Make sure you inspect the nose gear real close. They are easy to land flat or on the nose..

I am assuming you meant manual flaps?

PERFORMANCE: Every day of the week 150kts, 6000-7000 ft 13.5 gph.

The plane will land and fly better at gross then it does light.

Regardless of what anyone else says with proper technique you can fly this bird out of 1500 ft grass runway no problem.

Use top of the white arc 120mph for gear not 150 as per the book and you will save your gear doors ( warping, cracking) and motor.

By the way each piece of the plane was alodined and zinc chromated BEFORE assembly!

Most importantly check the insurance.. Many carriers wont write a plane that old.. Plus there have been numerous accidents and the insurers are gun shy.

FYI: I was paying $3150 for $130,000 hull with a smooth million in liability 1969 C Model

My 310 is $3200 $170,000 hull smooth mil
Hope this helps...

http://www.webcoaircraft.com/

 

[crash-proof]

Comanche 400

Forget all you've heard about the Comanche 180-260 series, those are girly-man planes, if you want to join the big boys you need one of these:

http://www.comanche400.com

imp: imp: imp:

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Very durable plane--I know used to know a guy who geared on up--TWICE!! He then went on to fly an airliner in the UAE. Look at the history for the plane you are buying. If it is or ever was owned by Mike Wilson, let it gooooooooooo!

 

[Flyin Tony]

We have a 64 250 we are putting up for sale right now. 4300TT 900SMOH and 5STOH. I have done 7 hours non stop. I get 155-160 ture on 12 GPH. I would look for a 62-64 250 if your going to buy one. They do get costly had a 8,000 annual last month.

 

[AC560]

I got an hour in a PA24-400 a couple years back, was wicked fun.

 

[AirBadger]

Anyone got 200 grand I could have?

http://www.aso.com/aircraft/97066/

 

[AC560]

Anyone got 200 grand I could have?

http://www.aso.com/aircraft/97066/

260C is faster plus I can think of a lot better planes for $200k. I will say though when you put the power in you feel it.

 

[GoingHot]

I have done 7 hours non stop. I get 155-160 ture on 12 GPH.

WOW! That thing can glide for 2 hours? (unless you have something more than the standard 2x30 gal tanks).

 

[User546]

Thanks for all the suggestions and information. It never donned on me to ask about a trial membership. I also realized I was being a bit silly in the first place about the $64 membership fee. If I do buy an aircraft, that $64 will be relatively a drop in the bucket compared to whats coming.

And if I was going to drop 200 grand on an aircraft, it sure wouldn't be a 400hp single! I'd be getting me a pimpin' multi for that!

Flying Tony... tell me a bit more about your $8,000 annual. I made mention of this to another pilot at the airport, and he was taken back a bit by it. I know annuals aren't cheap, but is that something I can expect every year, or did your guy do a lot of fixing and replacing?

And in answer to another posters, it's got the original, cluster-f#*k of a layout panel. Nothing exciting on the radios either. Anyone have any idea what I could epxect to pay to put a new panel in that would allow me to "six pack" the instruments, and give everything a more newer look to it? I've seen some other panels of similiar years on AeroTrader and Trade A Plane that have have been re-laid out great, and look like a more modern day Piper. Curious how much that might set me back, and if it's easy to do.

 

[Vector4fun]

Simply updating the radios is relatively simple for a good shop, depends on what you're wanting and willing to spend. A new 430 and a couple other new radios will cost around $20k installed. We paid around $7000 for a used KY97 and KNS80 plus new CDI plus used KR86 and plus dual avionics masters and some other minor work, installed. Understand those were all used, refurbed radios, not new.


Remanufacturing the panel to move the gauges around can be more complicated and would require a field approval I believe. You've got to change the plumbing and wiring, look at lighting etc. I know some guys have spent $40-$50K on their Cessna panels. Most all will tell you it's far cheaper to buy an airplane with radios and panel you can live with. I've been dreaming of a new, powder-coated and silk-screened metal panel for the Cessna, along with a refurb of the electrical bus, breakers and panel lighting, and that's around $7K installed as well, with a pre-engineered kit that's already been field approved numerous times. You might double that figure and add 1-2 months for a one-off Commanche panel.

All the above might well be worth the money and effort if you plan on keeping the airplane for 10 or more years, otherwise, it's money you'll never get back. Consider a newer Arrow with modern panel.