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Pinnacle vs. Mesaba

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J

JMO

Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Posts
7
I'm a low-time military reserve guy looking to get on with either Pinnacle or Mesaba out of DTW (live close by). I know PCL has the 3500 upgrade requirement, which means even with my part-time military flying, it will take me around 3 years to get there (currently at about 550). What are Mesaba's upgrade mins? I'm trying to look at the pros and cons of both. This is what I've figured out so far from reading the posts on FI:

Pinnacle
Contract still not figured out
Pay sucks

Mesaba
Getting 200's and 900's
Contract (is it decent?)
Pay sucks, but not as bad as PCL

Thanks ahead of time for the input!
 
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I believe the saying goes something about a rock and a hard place.
 
Upgrade at PCL is 2500 with 1000 at the company. So depending what you come in with, it could make a large difference.

Private message me if you need anymore info.
 
Mesaba is atp minnimums and a 1000 company time and the company can reduce the 1000 to fill upgrades if there arent enough to fill classes. Upgrades are coming down in a hurry and is looking like less than 2 years from date of hire.
 
Go Mesaba.

Great people & Great Work-Rules. Pay is above industry average and upgrade will be quick. Mesaba also has a flow-thru with NWA and 9E doesn't. If you live near DTW you can't go wrong with Mesaba. Avoid Pinnacle!
 
SplitBar said:
Go Mesaba.

Pay is above industry average.
Click to expand...


I'm not trying to pick a fight here but this is not an accurate statement for any kind of turbojet flying.

Five year captain scales

Industry average 50 seat = 65.05
Mesaba 50 seat = 60.44

Industry average 70-76 seat = 69.75
Mesaba 70-76 seat = 66.33

Add the fact that the current bottom of the industry (MESA, TSA, PCL, & ASA) are all either well past or near their amendable dates and the picture gets rather dire indeed for Mesaba who is not amendable until four years from now.
 
A flow through is not something off of which your decision should be based. They are minimally benficial at best to the regional carrier. There are very few who benefit from the flow through... most get screwed.

Mesaba is as much a hunk of junk as any other carrier... I would seriously doubt if upgrade comes anywhere close to 2 years there.

The new minimums for upgrade at 9E have been accurately posted here earlier. As soon as you get the time, you'll get the upgrade typically.
 
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DoinTime said:
I'm not trying to pick a fight here but this is not an accurate statement for any kind of turbojet flying.

Five year captain scales

Industry average 50 seat = 65.05
Mesaba 50 seat = 60.44

Industry average 70-76 seat = 69.75
Mesaba 70-76 seat = 66.33

Add the fact that the current bottom of the industry (MESA, TSA, PCL, & ASA) are all either well past or near their amendable dates and the picture gets rather dire indeed for Mesaba who is not amendable until four years from now.
Click to expand...

The rapid growth at Mesaba will cause full snapbacks to occur in the near future. Factor in the Saab pilots and Mesaba pilots have abover average pay rates. Also, you have to factor in how work rules affect pay. Mesaba has a 4 hour minday, full cancelation pay, block/better, premium pay and other language that enhances a pilots monthly credit. My buddies at SWA and Continental keep telling me how much they miss the Mesaba work rules and I have heard that often from them. If NWA hires in 2008, 60 Mesaba pilots stand to flow up.
 
Going somewhere for a "flow-up, back" program is foolish at best. When you enter the bottom of the seniority list, what good is it really going to do you? Those captains ahead of you will actually have better luck going to other airlines than NWA. And who does a flowback help after a possible terrorist attack? Not you.

Do you guys really think those snap backs will ever be inacted? Look at how it's written. Look who makes the decisions on when the snap back is supposed to happen.

You have a better shot that Colgan will operate those Saabs before the snap back happens. The odds are not in your favor.
 
redflyer65 said:
Going somewhere for a "flow-up, back" program is foolish at best. When you enter the bottom of the seniority list, what good is it really going to do you? Those captains ahead of you will actually have better luck going to other airlines than NWA. And who does a flowback help after a possible terrorist attack? Not you.
Click to expand...

Historically, very few regional pilots have ever benefited from a flowthrough. Maybe this'll be the exception.

On the other hand, the airline industry is notoriously cyclical, and the FLOWBACK provisions have absolutely killed movement at many a regional. Look at what happened at CAL, AMR and USAirways.

Take your chances, but remember flowthrough/flowback is a double-edged sword, and payback is a bitch.
 
SplitBar said:
The rapid growth at Mesaba will cause full snapbacks to occur in the near future. Factor in the Saab pilots and Mesaba pilots have abover average pay rates. Also, you have to factor in how work rules affect pay. Mesaba has a 4 hour minday, full cancelation pay, block/better, premium pay and other language that enhances a pilots monthly credit. My buddies at SWA and Continental keep telling me how much they miss the Mesaba work rules and I have heard that often from them.
Click to expand...

With all due respect even with full snapbacks in 2010 and 2011 Mesaba will be the worst paid small turbojet operator by the end of your contract. Most of the carriers that comprise the "average" have the same, similar, or better work rules than XJ.


If NWA hires in 2008, 60 Mesaba pilots stand to flow up.
Click to expand...

In order for 60 to flow up NWA would have to hire 600 in 2008. That is doubtful with the proposed fleet cutbacks. Another thing that has yet to be fleshed out with the flow rules is if someone who bypassses flow up still occupies a flow up position. This was the way it was at eagle I believe. You might get 60 vacancies to flow up at XJ but if the top 60 do not take them nobody goes up.
 
Flow backs to Mesaba can not exceed the number of flow ups. Zero flow ups means zero flow downs.

Yes, of course many of us have read the contract language. There is no ambiguity in the snap back provisions. A certain amount of aircraft on a certain date equals a certain percentage of snap backs.

Yes the SF3's will eventually go away. Probably not for at least 5 years, which is plenty of time for full snap backs.

The corporate street thugs are just as bad at Mesaba as they are anywhere else. However, Mesaba just plain doesn't suck right now. Get over it.
 
JMO said:
I'm a low-time military reserve guy looking to get on with either Pinnacle or Mesaba out of DTW (live close by). I know PCL has the 3500 upgrade requirement, which means even with my part-time military flying, it will take me around 3 years to get there (currently at about 550). What are Mesaba's upgrade mins? I'm trying to look at the pros and cons of both. This is what I've figured out so far from reading the posts on FI:

Pinnacle
Contract still not figured out
Pay sucks

Mesaba
Getting 200's and 900's
Contract (is it decent?)
Pay sucks, but not as bad as PCL

Thanks ahead of time for the input!
Click to expand...

I was in your shoes a few years ago with plenty of pic turbine. I did a little research and went with Mesaba. QOL and work rules don't even compare when you put the two side by side. Mesaba is a far better company to work for from the time you begin training and on. Good luck with your decision.
 
"Snapback" is a provision in the concessionary bankruptcy contract that automatically jacks the payrates back up when a certain number of airplanes are on the property.
 
DoinTime said:
In order for 60 to flow up NWA would have to hire 600 in 2008. That is doubtful with the proposed fleet cutbacks. Another thing that has yet to be fleshed out with the flow rules is if someone who bypassses flow up still occupies a flow up position. This was the way it was at eagle I believe. You might get 60 vacancies to flow up at XJ but if the top 60 do not take them nobody goes up.
Click to expand...


DT, where you get this info? I have heard the 10% rumor as well, but I have been told by one of our union guys that this is not the way it is going to work. We haven't seen the final details yet, and there is still a chance that it won't happen.
 
The flow-up limits are 3 per month from Jan-Aug and 9 per month starting in Sept 08. It has nothing to do with a percentage of new hires. If there are 6 new hires starting in January 2008, 3 of them will be XJers. If there are 20 new hires starting in October, 9 of them will be XJers.
 
XJ pay rates suck. Some talk about the SF FO rate, but that is just a front to cover the well below avg jet fo rate. As said before, these rates are being compared to rates at Mesa and Pinnacle .. both of who are currently in negotiations, so that should give you an idea how old those rates are. Snapbacks should happen ... even with the snapbacks XJ payrates will be close to the bottom if not there. The snapback rates return to the 2004 book ... which should have been reality in 2008 instead of 2010 as they would be now. Most pilots on property prior to banckruptcy should be able to hold captain in the near future as well as some of the first new hires I would guess. The long time FO's are going to take a little bit of time to get PIC before being able to move on. Flowthrough...who knows. If being owned by NWA means anything (think back to 9E early 2000's) I would say XJ is an ok place to be.
 
Indeed one of the goals for the next contract should be getting rid of the blended FO rate. We shall see if PBS needs to go or if it's actually liveable. Not that I am holding my breath on either, I am afraid we've opened a couple cans of worms that we will never be able to get rid of.
 
The XJ pilots are a great group...
However, I think that even before they took the CH11 hit on their CBA, they were a bit cocky about their contract...it isn't (wasn't) THAT exceptional.
For example, they would always talk about the great SAAB FO rate... there is no SAAB FO rate. It was a SAAB/AVRO rate.

Also, as experienced pro's, they had a fair amount of negative ideas about other pilot groups, like pinnacle (admittedly that was at least partially deserved). BUT guess what- your group of professionals is about to be diluted by a bunch of backpack wearing, ipod playing newbies. Luckily you have a great core group, but just realize you will have growing pains, and that not everything that is wrong at Pinnacle or other airlines is a reflection of all the pilots that work there.

Turbo
 
FlyHigher said:
What is a snap back?
Click to expand...


Clearly, you've never been married. A "snap back" is what happens when your wife mouths off at you after you did something she perceives as wrong. The worst is when a 'snap back' happens even if you haven't done anything wrong! This case is known as "that time of the month" you should try to bid away from home...
 
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DoinTime said:
In order for 60 to flow up NWA would have to hire 600 in 2008. That is doubtful with the proposed fleet cutbacks. Another thing that has yet to be fleshed out with the flow rules is if someone who bypassses flow up still occupies a flow up position. This was the way it was at eagle I believe. You might get 60 vacancies to flow up at XJ but if the top 60 do not take them nobody goes up.
Click to expand...
NWALPA says 9 per month not to exceed 10% of the size of the mesaba seniority list.(not NWA hiring amount)
 

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