Pinnacle to fly CRJ900s for Delta

[ataopsdave]

Reality check. Not going to happen.

PCL can only fly CRJ-900's for NWA unless they purchase them themselves (or DAL purchasesthem for PCL for that purpose). Any acft in which NWA has any finacial interest can only be operated on NWA routes/code.

From Chapter 1 of the NWA pilots contract (Scope):


B.7.c.(5)


Except as to aircraft operated by a Feeder Carrier operating pursuant to the provisions of Section 1 B.7.c.(7)(d), any jet aircraft and AVRO-85 aircraft operated by a Feeder Carrier (i) which are owned or leased by the Company or in which the Company has a financial interest, and (ii) which are operated by Mesaba Airlines, Pinnacle Airlines, or any air carrier in which the Company or an affiliate has an ownership interest, must be operated at all times with the Northwest code designator (NW). If the Northwest code designator is removed from said aircraft, that aircraft shall no longer be operated by the carrier.

These aircraft were already purchased by DL and not bound by the NWALPA scope agreement...The aircraft that NW purchased were sent to XJ

 

[Smarta$$]

Reality check. Not going to happen.

PCL can only fly CRJ-900's for NWA unless PCL purchases them themselves (or DAL purchases them for PCL for that purpose).

Any acft in which NWA has any financial interest can only be operated on NWA routes/code.

From Chapter 1 of the NWA pilots contract (Scope):

B.7.c.(5) Except as to aircraft operated by a Feeder Carrier operating pursuant to the provisions of Section 1 B.7.c.(7)(d), any jet aircraft and AVRO-85 aircraft operated by a Feeder Carrier (i) which are owned or leased by the Company or in which the Company has a financial interest, and (ii) which are operated by Mesaba Airlines, Pinnacle Airlines, or any air carrier in which the Company or an affiliate has an ownership interest, must be operated at all times with the Northwest code designator (NW). If the Northwest code designator is removed from said aircraft, that aircraft shall no longer be operated by the carrier.

Who ever said anything about using NW aircraft to fly for delta?

 

[Fly4hire]

Who ever said anything about using NW aircraft to fly for delta?

OK. Hadn't heard they were in a deal where someone else was going to provide the planes. If so good for PCL, although I have to wonder about the feasibilty with all the current staffing issues.

 

[dondk]

Agreed. Like I said, plenty of time (weeks - months(1-2)) to have a vacancy. Almost impossible to fill it though. Not enough people will come here without a good contract and a scope violation.

I don't know about plenty of time, but they got a little more wiggle room before they are completely painted into a corner.

Warm bodies is not a problem, they are in bed with enough pilot mills they can get the bodies. Keeping them around is the problem... Getting qualified bodies into the left seat is the issue right now.

Average monthly attrition rate is 20+ CA's a month, they upgrade about the same every month.

The FO attrition right now is slightly higher than the CA attrition. Add that it takes 12+ weeks to create a FO and many bolt before a year.

 

[i fly boxes]

This is what will probably happen if this is true. We have seen management come to the table in a overwhelming force compared to what they have been doing recently. We have the scheduling section of the contract basically done without signatures. Now they are working on hours of service and compensation. Management only wants a contract when they need one, so they must need one. I suspect if they do start flying these things it would be around november, with an announcement around june or july. It gives them time to get this new contract in place, catch up on staffing (which they will never really be able to do) and then get all the infastructure in place. Right now i think it is logistically impossible, but we will see.

 

[dondk]

I would be surprised if we are on compensation, that should be the last section. Hours of service and R&I I understand are the next two up. Scheduling may need another week.

Still got about 5-6 sections to go. A contract by June? not too sure about that.

 

[Tarzan]

You guys at Pinnacle really believe this? Any chance managment is attempting to shove thorugh a contract with dangling the big iron in front of you? We heard the same thing from ASA managment a last year. And, wouldn't you know it, we are working on a contract as well.

 

[sweptback]

ASA even put out a memo saying that we would be taking delivery of the 900s.

Guess what, SkyWest is flying them.

Until the aircraft is on your ramp and painted in your colors it's just a rumor.

 

[dondk]

You guys at Pinnacle really believe this? Any chance managment is attempting to shove thorugh a contract with dangling the big iron in front of you? We heard the same thing from ASA managment a last year. And, wouldn't you know it, we are working on a contract as well.

The only difference is our management needs their bonus's and we can now fly for someone else. Something else our mgmt needs to get some distance from NW. 9E mgmt wants to be the next Mesa if they can do it.

What other carrot they have to dangle to get new hires?

 

[BcPilot99]

These aircraft were already purchased by DL and not bound by the NWALPA scope agreement...The aircraft that NW purchased were sent to XJ

^^^^^^
What he said...

 

[~~~^~~~]

ASA even put out a memo saying that we would be taking delivery of the 900s.

Guess what, SkyWest is flying them.

Until the aircraft is on your ramp and painted in your colors it's just a rumor.

It was much, MUCH, more than a rumor at ASA. Those airplanes were converted from ASA's FIRM order prior to the asset purchase, we had approval for the operation from the FAA for the operation of those aircraft (which SkyWest did not have at the time) and it just makes more sense for ASA to operate those airplanes under the agreement with DL in ATL.

The loss of these airplanes are part of what triggered the transfer of Comair's airplanes to keep ASA in compliance with DL's agreement that 80% of DCI from ATL would be ASA. Comair is down to 15 CRJ700's seaters as a result.

It is an open debate whether ALPA made the right move. Without scope at the DCI level the ASA pilots really don't have any control, or negotiating power. We could get a good contract, but watch our fleet disappear.

If you graph the block hours that have been transferred outside of ALPA at the small jet level the numbers are simply shocking. ALPA's intentional action to undermine small jet members to enable mainline members unlimited negotiating power (regardless of harm to other pilots) has truly destroyed this profession and done the most harm to ALPA members at the small jet carriers. Maybe ALPA's answer is to try to intentionally put the ALPA represented small jet carriers out of business - nobody seems to shed any tears for them and at this point there may be no solution to the alter ego disaster.

 

[Top Gum]

Wow! A "senior captain"... no wait... a "very senior captain" told you? You can take it to the bank then I guess.

The only reason seniority may be important is because this person got in 17 yrs ago and is still in contact with some who are now in management.

You are definitely missing the part where I said, “this is only rumor”.

 

[Lear70]

I'd come back part-time for J.A. pay at my old CA rate... IF I could cherry-pick the best trips out of open time.

Let's see here, that would be about $70 an hour plus time and a half would be about $105 bucks... that's about right for a 90-seat jet CA.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

The union has all the information pertaining to the 900s, but unforunately it is critical they keep the information (and all other information) confidential. "The legal team is taking a look at it".

At least Wake has all his puppets in place now...

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Warm bodies is not a problem, they are in bed with enough pilot mills they can get the bodies. Keeping them around is the problem... Getting qualified bodies into the left seat is the issue right now.

In our internal website every other post is about folks saying good-bye. Now they sent all the Check airmen that where training a brand new group of newly appointed Checks back to the line because they needed both the sim time and the captains in the line. March is looking ugly with a lot of cancellations due to lack of captains and they are at a catch 22 not being able to train more check airmen with all the guys that we are loosing to mainline and to all other majors, quite a bit of our checks in MSP are NWA furloughs.

 

[DTWFO]

The union has all the information pertaining to the 900s, but unforunately it is critical they keep the information (and all other information) confidential. "The legal team is taking a look at it".

At least Wake has all his puppets in place now...

Or you could say Wake has all of his "lapdogs" sitting at attention now, referring to all the LEC reps, with the exception of a couple. Those voting reps sold all of us 9E guys out when they voted Wake into another term. Now its going to be another two years of no information and grandstanding to stroke his own ego....the only thing he has in mind is his own benefit.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Or you could say Wake has all of his "lapdogs" sitting at attention now, referring to all the LEC reps, with the exception of a couple. Those voting reps sold all of us 9E guys out when they voted Wake into another term. Now its going to be another two years of no information and grandstanding to stroke his own ego....the only thing he has in mind is his own benefit.

AMEN, The thing that pissed me off the most was how the MEC Sec/Treasurer was ousted and substituted with the former communications chair that didn't communicate diddle squat and C.S. didn't even get a thank you note for years of service to the MEC. We should have gotten rid of W.G. along with Woerthless.

 

[dondk]

Checkairman comment...

we lost I think 30%-40% of our checkairman and did not replace. What little they have replaced still does not cover the need. When you have 150 people apply and you interview a handful and hire even less. At least line standards follows what the company does.

the "vote"

As for C.S. the fat lady has not sung yet, don't count anything out...

Lear70, how quickly you forget this is Pinnacle... we don't have any good trips in open time!!!

 

[DoinTime]

Or you could say Wake has all of his "lapdogs" sitting at attention now, referring to all the LEC reps, with the exception of a couple. Those voting reps sold all of us 9E guys out when they voted Wake into another term. Now its going to be another two years of no information and grandstanding to stroke his own ego....the only thing he has in mind is his own benefit.

Hows the view from the cheap seats?

 

[Lear70]

Or you could say Wake has all of his "lapdogs" sitting at attention now, referring to all the LEC reps, with the exception of a couple. Those voting reps sold all of us 9E guys out when they voted Wake into another term. Now its going to be another two years of no information and grandstanding to stroke his own ego....the only thing he has in mind is his own benefit.

You speak of that which you know not of.

One of the joys of being on the "outside" these days is that I get let in on more and more of the "inside scoop", from some very surprising people that I previously didn't think would EVER talk with me. Maybe they're hunting for a rec, I don't know, but the point is that in addition to the guys I regularly talked to and was friends with BEFORE I left, theres 2 more who are friendly these days and I hear some interesting stuff.

You're going to see a lot of resignations from both the MEC Chair/Vice-Chair positions AND from the company itself in the next 90 days. For various reasons, all of that had a play in how it went.

The way it went down in MEM sucks, that's for certain. But withhold judgment on WHICH MEC/LEC leaders "sold you out" for a couple months, and all will be revealed.

 

[xjhawk]

So reading this i have seen two things. One, that there is a lot of bitterness at 9E. Two, that some senior capt said....they will be flying delta 900 and there will be some conference call today.

Both are understandable and explainable.

One, being at XJ I can see why everyone at 9E is pissed off. Flying in the redtail family......one must expect being screwed with when dealing with the redtail family.

On the second point. with your new impressionable pilots flying there (we will be experiencing the same shortly) they think that a senior captain is in the know because they will beleive almost anything. to those new pilots, just because some bitter senior guy who has not gotten on with the majors and knows the names of the companies leadership does not make them in the know!

 

[DTWFO]

You speak of that which you know not of.

One of the joys of being on the "outside" these days is that I get let in on more and more of the "inside scoop", from some very surprising people that I previously didn't think would EVER talk with me. Maybe they're hunting for a rec, I don't know, but the point is that in addition to the guys I regularly talked to and was friends with BEFORE I left, theres 2 more who are friendly these days and I hear some interesting stuff.

You're going to see a lot of resignations from both the MEC Chair/Vice-Chair positions AND from the company itself in the next 90 days. For various reasons, all of that had a play in how it went.

The way it went down in MEM sucks, that's for certain. But withhold judgment on WHICH MEC/LEC leaders "sold you out" for a couple months, and all will be revealed.

Don't be so sure that I know not what I speak of. I have heard these things as well and I am aware of the big resignation to come. Just because I don't broadcast it all over flightinfo.com doesn't mean I am not aware of what has happend/will happen!

 

[DoinTime]

We should have gotten rid of W.G. along with Woerthless.

The first step in getting a new MEC Chairman voted in is having at least one person run against him. Once you get someone to run its rather important to have the status reps that support a change cast a vote in the election.

 

[dondk]

Don't be so sure that I know not what I speak of. I have heard these things as well and I am aware of the big resignation to come. Just because I don't broadcast it all over flightinfo.com doesn't mean I am not aware of what has happend/will happen!

Aww... if it isn't blasted on flightinfo then it can't be fact!!!

all things aside.. the next ohh... 3 months will be very interesting with the drama and politics of 9E management and 9E union.

You can say one thing though.. you probably will have more info from this board then from our private board. Some of the posts above would have been censored on our board...

 

[dondk]

The first step in getting a new MEC Chairman voted in is having at least one person run against him. Once you get someone to run its rather important to have the status reps that support a change cast a vote in the election.

we had someone, then he got hired at blue... could not of happened to a better person either.

I don't see anyone being able to run against WG. One thing is they can bitch loudly, but I would love to see those take a union position and prove themselves first then bitch.

 

[redflyer65]

Donk,

Your right about the guy going to Jet Blue. He brought alot to the table here at PCL. And I can't stress that enough. Sort of an under statement.

I was also under the assumption that J.L. was looking to enter the fray, but really never heard anything about it other than a single post on our message board. Seems like alot of this was done behind the scenes.

As far as WG goes, I don't think he always communicates effectively at times, but as a whole we could do much, much worst. He has an intimate knowledge of how this management team operates and how to pull the right strings sometimes at the right times. Just my .02 cents.

As far as flight crews... this place is running on empty. Just like the corprate ops.

 

[dondk]

Donk,

I was also under the assumption that J.L. was looking to enter the fray, but really never heard anything about it other than a single post on our message board. Seems like alot of this was done behind the scenes.

As far as WG goes, I don't think he always communicates effectively at times, but as a whole we could do much, much worst. He has an intimate knowledge of how this management team operates and how to pull the right strings sometimes at the right times. Just my .02 cents.

As far as flight crews... this place is running on empty. Just like the corprate ops.

JL I don't think has enough credibility to hold down the fort. He is pissed off enough, but from a association point he need to get involved. SR owns MEM, but JL could get sec/tres or C3 since we are down one. I think JL shows his stuff his credibility will rise enough to make a decent run. I just don't think he would get enough support right now. sad but true.

WG has a stranglehold on communications and I don't quite understand the WHY. He is a good politician when it comes to our mgmt team, so he is definitely the right person to call BS when the company comes running.

flight crews? heck if this joint could get a single pilot waiver from the FAA we MAY have the staffing then.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

You speak of that which you know not of.

One of the joys of being on the "outside" these days is that I get let in on more and more of the "inside scoop", from some very surprising people that I previously didn't think would EVER talk with me. Maybe they're hunting for a rec, I don't know, but the point is that in addition to the guys I regularly talked to and was friends with BEFORE I left, theres 2 more who are friendly these days and I hear some interesting stuff.

You're going to see a lot of resignations from both the MEC Chair/Vice-Chair positions AND from the company itself in the next 90 days. For various
reasons, all of that had a play in how it went.

The way it went down in MEM sucks, that's for certain. But withhold judgment on WHICH MEC/LEC leaders "sold you out" for a couple months, and all will be revealed.

The soap opera continues. Somebody PM me when we hear ANYTHING from the union except to keep waiting...

 

[WildBlue]

JL I don't think has enough credibility to hold down the fort. He is pissed off enough, but from a association point he need to get involved. SR owns MEM, but JL could get sec/tres or C3 since we are down one. I think JL shows his stuff his credibility will rise enough to make a decent run. I just don't think he would get enough support right now. sad but true.

WG has a stranglehold on communications and I don't quite understand the WHY. He is a good politician when it comes to our mgmt team, so he is definitely the right person to call BS when the company comes running.

flight crews? heck if this joint could get a single pilot waiver from the FAA we MAY have the staffing then.

Yeah, JL is p.o.'d. The problem is that he has never done anything except rant. Let him do representations with management and you are going to get some guys fired. Takes some finesse to work the C3 stuff.

WG is probably one of the best minds we have working for us. He's been doing the job for a long time and knows all the buttons to push. I agree that communications is not his long suit, but in dealing with scope, Trenary and getting things done, there is no one in this group that has the capability or desire. The idea that he is "in it for himself" and all the other crud is just that...crud. Where is he going? I think he's over fifty. Talk to the people who have watched him work...guys like the C3 Chairman. Even ask the guy that some of you wanted to replace him with. I heard that he basically told the MEC at the last meeting that WG was the best guy for the job.

CS would be a disaster. In talking to a couple of the MEC members, he spent too much time working against the decisions of the entire MEC. That was not his job as MEC S/T. He just p.o.'d too many people on the MEC.

SR has forgotten more about scheduling issues than 95% of our pilots know. Terrible with representations---he has a real problem defending someone whos guilty. That's ok---we have C3.

 

[dondk]

Yeah, JL is p.o.'d. The problem is that he has never done anything except rant. Let him do representations with management and you are going to get some guys fired. Takes some finesse to work the C3 stuff.

WG is probably one of the best minds we have working for us. He's been doing the job for a long time and knows all the buttons to push. I agree that communications is not his long suit, but in dealing with scope, Trenary and getting things done, there is no one in this group that has the capability or desire. The idea that he is "in it for himself" and all the other crud is just that...crud. Where is he going? I think he's over fifty. Talk to the people who have watched him work...guys like the C3 Chairman. Even ask the guy that some of you wanted to replace him with. I heard that he basically told the MEC at the last meeting that WG was the best guy for the job.

CS would be a disaster. In talking to a couple of the MEC members, he spent too much time working against the decisions of the entire MEC. That was not his job as MEC S/T. He just p.o.'d too many people on the MEC.

SR has forgotten more about scheduling issues than 95% of our pilots know. Terrible with representations---he has a real problem defending someone whos guilty. That's ok---we have C3.

If I didn't know better your one of us.. the C3... spoken true to form and with enough inside workings.

you are right on many of your points. the only one I am not 100% behind is CS. Sometimes you need an "anti-politician" on the team, keeps everyone else in check. The replacement is more of a team player than a team leader and that is no disrespect to IM. He is a good person, but I don't see him bucking the system to make a point known.

JL is just pissed, so much energy that could be used constructively.

Most of the representations in MEM are nothing like the northern bases, The last C3 guy did a great job, he was a great loss to the MEM guys and I don't think the MEM guys realize how much they lost.