Pinnacle purchases 15 Q400

[Lear70]

Wow...

I sit here as a Colgan pilot really concerned about the pinnacle pilot groups attitude as well as the pinnacle's Alpa reps attitude. Seams from my side that you think it is all about yourself

I'm getting that from a few of your guys as well. VTChaz is a prime example.

on Alpa'a side,
1. it appears like you want us to join to protect the pinnacle pilots bad contract you got them...Sounds like a great reason for me to want a union.

It's still a far better contract that what you are working under at Colgan and was a HUGE increase from what they had prior to this agreement.

2. The alpa contract you worked out to make your pilots happy has failed, read the posts, can't seam to find a pinnacle pilot that is happy and likes his job...good job again

No contract in the world is good enough if management has NO intent to honor it.

The problem is the RLA has no teeth; when you work for a unionized carrier with similarly bad relationships, you'll understand this.

I'll let you in on a little secret....if you don't like your job...quit
if enough people quit, the company will change things so there pilots stay longer...stop crying to your union rep...cant't you see it's not working

What CA1900 said.

on the Pilots side
1. All I hear is all new flying, all new airplane types all new everything is our god given right and the Colgan Pilots have no rights to anything except what we don't want....oh and we welcome you

I don't think you'd be saying any different if the roles were reversed.

Hard to watch your company go out and spend millions of dollars made off selling a portion of your company (it was a PCL note) to put airplanes SOMEWHERE ELSE.

2. Join us....Oh but, lets merge our seniorty lists in a way that benefits us, we coulden't have a senior colgan pilot take our captain slots and make pinnacle pilots fly one of those planes with props.....yuck and it would be against our scope....

I think you have it a little backwards. I betcha if you came to the PCL MEC now, you'd get DOH with fences to keep you in your turboprops, keep the PCL CA's in their jets, and let F/O's upgrade into WHATEVER aircraft their seniority holds.

Of course, that's just me being reasonable again.

heres a little insite...

The pilot group at Colgan for the most part is happy with our job. Industry standard pay,

Compared to what industry? Walmart greeters? No offense, but I couldn't survive on your pay rate. Hell, I haven't made that little money since I was a CFI.

we are expecting our friends and management to make us an industry standard offer to fly 74 seat airplanes. I believe they will do just that. Why you say....RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER hummmm...interesting concept...

BWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

ROFLMFAO OMG you can't be serious. I just re-read that while quoting and caught it for the first time. You may get the lucky place on my signature line and replace Mr. 1500 Captain for that one.

Trust your "friends and management"... did you just use those two words together in the same sentence? About Nonconnah? OH GOD, I need another beer!!!

Look at the Pinnacle stock if you want to see Colgan Air's value

That's not what's inflating PCL stock. PCL stock is being inflated with the announcement of new income from Continental. The stock market could give a rat's a5s who is actually sitting up front.

Sorry to break it to you.

Can't we all just get along, fly and have some fun while we are here in the regionals....majors will be hiring soon

If I hear that again I think I'm gonna be sick. More self-justification... *sigh*

thank you Rich, I think I will!:beer:

Cool!

Just got back from a couple of frosty ones myself at the hotel bar.

I'm buying on the 21st in MEM evidently... Thought 128 had forgotten about that. Wondering how expensive the bar tab is gonna be, especially since it'll probably end up in Tunica. :drunk:

 

[gooseman13]

Does anyone have the Pinnacle scope clause? It'd be interesting to see what the actual wording is.

 

[Yodafly]

As I said, Proof that the contract that ALPA got Pinnicle pilots did nothing but make a bunch of unhappy pinnicle pilots



Quote:
on Alpa'a side,
1. it appears like you want us to join to protect the pinnacle pilots bad contract you got them...Sounds like a great reason for me to want a union.
It's still a far better contract that what you are working under at Colgan and was a HUGE increase from what they had prior to this agreement.



Don't be so sure, I never have less the 15 days off a month half the time it is 18 and your pay is only about 10k more then mine with no crash pad expenses but keep up with your delusions if it makes you feel better

Quote:
2. The alpa contract you worked out to make your pilots happy has failed, read the posts, can't seam to find a pinnacle pilot that is happy and likes his job...good job again
No contract in the world is good enough if management has NO intent to honor it.

The problem is the RLA has no teeth; when you work for a unionized carrier with similarly bad relationships, you'll understand this.

again I state nice job ALPA......unions Rock I can't wait to pay them for this


Quote:

on the Pilots side
1. All I hear is all new flying, all new airplane types all new everything is our god given right and the Colgan Pilots have no rights to anything except what we don't want....oh and we welcome you
I don't think you'd be saying any different if the roles were reversed.

Don't pretend like you care what happens to the Colgan Pilots
it is clear where you stand


Hard to watch your company go out and spend millions of dollars made off selling a portion of your company (it was a PCL note) to put airplanes SOMEWHERE ELSE.


Quote:
2. Join us....Oh but, lets merge our seniorty lists in a way that benefits us, we coulden't have a senior colgan pilot take our captain slots and make pinnacle pilots fly one of those planes with props.....yuck and it would be against our scope....
I think you have it a little backwards. I betcha if you came to the PCL MEC now, you'd get DOH with fences to keep you in your turboprops, keep the PCL CA's in their jets, and let F/O's upgrade into WHATEVER aircraft their seniority holds.

Of course, that's just me being reasonable again.

You have already shown your true intentions above and lost your credibility



Quote:
we are expecting our friends and management to make us an industry standard offer to fly 74 seat airplanes. I believe they will do just that. Why you say....RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER hummmm...interesting concept...
BWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

ROFLMFAO OMG you can't be serious. I just re-read that while quoting and caught it for the first time. You may get the lucky place on my signature line and replace Mr. 1500 Captain for that one.

Trust your "friends and management"... did you just use those two words together in the same sentence? About Nonconnah? OH GOD, I need another beer!!!

lets see what offer they make us, should be more then 50 seat RJ pay


Quote:
Look at the Pinnacle stock if you want to see Colgan Air's value
That's not what's inflating PCL stock. PCL stock is being inflated with the announcement of new income from Continental. The stock market could give a rat's a5s who is actually sitting up front.

Sorry to break it to you.

Please o' finance master tell me another line of ********************

 

[PCL_128]

Does anyone have the Pinnacle scope clause? It'd be interesting to see what the actual wording is.

SECTION 1
RECOGNITION AND JOB SECURITY​

A. RECOGNITION​

1. In accordance with certification No. R-5727 of the National Mediation
Board, Case No. R-5802, on August 22, 1998, the Company recognizes
the Association as the collective bargaining agent of the pilots employed
by the Company.​

2. The Association and the Company hereby adopt this collective bargaining
agreement (including all related letters of agreement between the
Company and the Association). All such agreements are collectively
referred to herein as the “Agreement.”​

B. SCOPE​

1. Except as provided in subsections B.2. and B.3., below, all present and
future flying of any form performed by or for the Company will be
performed by pilots on the Pilots’ System Seniority List in accordance
with the terms and conditions of the Agreement. The phrase “present and
future flying of any form performed by or for the Company” includes
without limitation all such flying (1) on the Company’s aircraft (whether
leased or owned), or (2) under the Company’s operational control,
including wet leases and contracting for other carriers or entities
(government, military or commercial), but does not include dry leases to
other carrier or entities.​

2. Notwithstanding subsection B.1., above, the Company may assign, wet
lease or contract out present or future flying for a period of nine (9)
months during the term of this Agreement if (1) such conduct is necessary
to accomplish the needs of service of the Company, and (2) the Company
does not have sufficient aircraft and pilots to perform such flying. The
Company will notify the MEC Chairman prior to executing the
assignment, subcontracting or wet lease agreement. No pilot will be
furloughed during any assignment, subcontracting or wet leasing.​

3. Notwithstanding subsection B.1., above, the Company may (1) use nonseniority
list pilots in connection with aircraft transactions and (2) use
manufacturer’s pilots to currently qualify the initial cadre of instructors
and check airmen on a new aircraft type. Initial cadre means a sufficient
number of instructors and check airmen to train and qualify pilots for the
arriving fleet.​

4. The Company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of
transferring the assets of the Company to such airline and avoiding its
obligations to the pilots of the Company under this Agreement.​

E. SUCCESSORSHIP​

This Agreement will be binding upon any successor or merged Company or
companies or any successor in the control of the Company, regardless of the
nature of the transfer of control (including purchase, sale, merger, consolidation,
acquisition, leasing of the operation, reorganization for the benefit of creditors,
and bankruptcy) unless or until changed in accordance with the provisions of the
Railway Labor Act, as amended. As soon as the Company becomes aware of a
transaction described in the foregoing sentence and it is legally permissible to
disclose such information, it will advise the MEC Chairman.​

F. LABOR PROTECTION​

1. In the event of the merger or consolidation of the Company with another
airline which affects the seniority rights of pilots covered by this
Agreement, provisions will be made for integration of seniority lists in a​

fair and equitable manner as follows:

a. The integration of seniority lists of the respective pilot groups will​

be governed by Association merger policy if both pre-transaction​

pilot groups are represented by the Association.​

b. If the other pre-transaction pilot group is not represented by the​

Association, then Sections 3 and 13 of the Labor Protective​

Provisions specified by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the​

Allegheny-Mohawk merger (hereinafter "Allegheny-Mohawk​

LPPs") will apply.​

2. Upon the announcement of a transaction which will or may result in the

acquisition of another airline by the Company or the consolidation of the
Company with another airline, the parties will meet promptly to negotiate
an appropriate fence agreement and/or to implement a seniority integration
process as described in subsection F.1., above. During the period between
the announcement of any transaction described in the preceding sentence
and the earlier of (1) agreement between the parties on a fence agreement,
(2) a completed and implemented seniority integration, or (3) the
operational merger of the entities, no pilot who is furlough protected
pursuant to subsections B.2. and C.1. will be furloughed as a result of such
transaction.​

G. RESOLUTION OF DISPUTES​

The Company agrees that any grievance filed by the Association alleging a
violation of Section 1 of the Agreement will bypass the initial steps of the
grievance process and will be submitted, heard and resolved through binding
arbitration on an expedited basis directly before the System Board of Adjustment
sitting with a neutral arbitrator. The dispute will be heard no later than thirty (30)
days following the submission to the System Board and decided no later than
sixty (60) days after submission, unless the parties agree otherwise in writing.​

 

[another cfii]

Thanks 128 for clearing up this huge issue that seem to confuse lots of our fellow Colganites..

Isn't nice to be able to get something off your chest? (As long as it's not regarding to upcoming lawsuit, eh?)

 

[gooseman13]

Thanks 128!

 

[Lear70]

As I said, Proof that the contract that ALPA got Pinnicle pilots did nothing but make a bunch of unhappy pinnicle pilots

Again, it wasn't the contract that made them unhappy, it is management willfully violating it REPEATEDLY that makes a bunch of unhappy PCL pilots.

Don't be so sure, I never have less the 15 days off a month half the time it is 18 and your pay is only about 10k more then mine with no crash pad expenses but keep up with your delusions if it makes you feel better

I'm glad it works for you. Some guys would love this. I certainly wouldn't mind outstation basing and being home every night (I don't own a crashpad), but I wouldn't give up $16,000 a year or more for it. I believe that's about the different pay between a year 5 Colgan CA ($46 an hour) and year 5 PCL CA ($62 an hour).

again I state nice job ALPA......unions Rock I can't wait to pay them for this

Oh, don't get me wrong. I HATE the way they work. I just know it's better than the alternative.

Trust me or not on that, at your own peril.

Don't pretend like you care what happens to the Colgan Pilots
it is clear where you stand

I don't know any Colgan pilots right off-hand that I can think of, but don't assume that I can't fight a battle for a cause I believe in even if I don't know the people.

My coworkers can attest to the many times I stepped in and put a stop to some company stupidity or another, at the risk of my own job, for people I had never met.

If it's honorable, meritous, and worth fighting for, then I'll fight. It's gotten me in trouble more than once but yes, I'm that honorable of a person. Just ask around.

You have already shown your true intentions above and lost your credibility

In your eyes, certainly, and in others' eyes, I'm sure. But you cannot debate the obvious merit in a combined seniority list with fences lasting a certain time to protect EVERYONE of their EXISTING status and aircraft (no one bumps anyone), and upgrades available across many different platforms, in different cities, possibly speeding up the whole process for your own F/O's if they're more senior than PCL F/O's.

I've been doing merger analysis for several weeks now with the Midwest/AirTran deal, and I'm here to tell you that your situation is unique in that it could be almost PAINLESS compared to the other merger/acquisition integrations have gone. Do some research, it's ugly.

Mark my words... again... just like when I told you what Uncle Phil's plan was last month. Listen closely:

Right now you hold the upper hand at Colgan. Right now you could dictate exactly these terms to the PCL MEC. Right now I'd bet you good money they'd accept those terms before starting the legal battle, because it makes their case EVEN STRONGER.

But if you don't... If you back up and say "We want no part of you", and the PCL MEC is later successful in their lawsuit and all the planes go to PCL, you will NOT get such favorable treatment. They will remember you as the guys who wanted it all to yourself and wouldn't even discuss a combined pilot group. And you'll get hosed.

Read some history, then we'll talk again.

lets see what offer they make us, should be more then 50 seat RJ pay

MORE than PCL CRJ pay as an entire package (contract versus non-contract)? I'll take that bet. What's the wager?

Look at the Pinnacle stock if you want to see Colgan Air's value
That's not what's inflating PCL stock. PCL stock is being inflated with the announcement of new income from Continental. The stock market could give a rat's a5s who is actually sitting up front.

Sorry to break it to you.

Please o' finance master tell me another line of ********************

Hey, don't take it from me, go get your own analysis.

I made almost $10 grand last month off trading PCL stock. I think I know a WEEE little more than you do about why it goes up and down.

Maybe not. You decide...

 

[Yodafly]

Hey, I just hope it works out for all...

Don't totaly understand all this
Allegheny-Mohawk Merger
looks like there is a lot of room for interpratation

talk to ya later

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wow...

I sit here as a Colgan pilot really concerned about the pinnacle pilot groups attitude as well as the pinnacle's Alpa reps attitude. Seams from my side that you think it is all about yourself

on Alpa'a side,
1. it appears like you want us to join to protect the pinnacle pilots bad contract you got them...Sounds like a great reason for me to want a union.

Well...Colgan control is no longer. This is a historical viewpoint.

2. The alpa contract you worked out to make your pilots happy has failed, read the posts, can't seam to find a pinnacle pilot that is happy and likes his job...good job again

Most pilots come to PCL for the quick upgrade. In addition the contract was signed in 99 and worked fine for Saabs....

I'll let you in on a little secret....if you don't like your job...quit
if enough people quit, the company will change things so there pilots stay longer...stop crying to your union rep...cant't you see it's not working

And what do I do at the next job when I am treated poorly? Quit? And the next job? Quit? No, professionals make the place better than they found it...

on the Pilots side
1. All I hear is all new flying, all new airplane types all new everything is our god given right and the Colgan Pilots have no rights to anything except what we don't want....oh and we welcome you

We have more in common than not...

2. Join us....Oh but, lets merge our seniorty lists in a way that benefits us, we coulden't have a senior colgan pilot take our captain slots and make pinnacle pilots fly one of those planes with props.....yuck and it would be against our scope....

No. I caution the message board usage. It is very easy to deliver and get the "wrong" message on the internet. I am a junior CA at PCL. I will accept displacement to FO in return for a fair intergration of seniorty list...


heres a little insite...

The pilot group at Colgan for the most part is happy with our job. Industry standard pay, 3 day work weeks and home every night. do you have that? Sure we would all like to be paid more but we understand it is a business and we fly 19 and 34 seat planes. Larger planes mean more money, we are expecting our friends and management to make us an industry standard offer to fly 74 seat airplanes. I believe they will do just that. Why you say....RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER hummmm...interesting concept... I have been here a while and believe the Colgan's truly want the best for there employees....companies thrive if everyone is happy and gets a piece. If ther are problems we call the Colgan's directly and talk about it. Colgan Air was bought because the employees make it valuble. It has 3 code shares because the employees and management showed the major airlines that we have a good product that is in high demand. Everyone knows unhappy employees means bad product.

The good ol days? Welcome to the new world order.... We can do this together...


Last point and I will get off my soap box...

The investors bought Colgan because of its relationship with US Air, Cont, and United. We increase Pinnacle airlines value by being able to bid more competitivaly against air wisky, republic and the rest

The investors bought colgan to invest. Everything is dollar orientated. THe dollar is all that matters to these people...

The Value to Colgan Air is the money for the Q400 expansion they had been bidding on...

Look at the Pinnacle stock if you want to see Colgan Air's value

Can't we all just get along, fly and have some fun while we are here in the regionals....majors will be hiring soon

We can get along, fly and have fun. But at the same time can we be realists? Also can we make both our companies good places to work so when the next generation of pilots comes along they don't get the sand coated salami....

 

[gromgutten]

J. Tapdancing Chrizt!!! This board really brings out the worst in people...
Can we just all agree that more than 50% of the US regionals are not good places to work?
Pinnacle and Colgan for sure.
If you still fly for any of these companies after you have gained 500-1500 PIC, you have to be either crazy, or too stupid to get a better job.
I moved on after 500PIC, and left the whole US industry behind. I fly in Asia now, and I love it. In my first year at PNCL I got 5 days of vacation!!! I now have 61 days! Of course the six figure income is not bad either...
If you want to fly for a living, and you think you deserve more than what you are paid now, look around! Right now the jobs are out there...