Pinnacle Pilots: "Just wanted to have fun"

[Towelie]

so forgetting to set the flaps for takeoff is an accident?

crashing an airplane into a mountain is an accident?

landing in a thunderstorm with up to 45kt gusts is an accident?

3 PILOTS not flying an airplane in a slow descent while concentrating on one minor problem allowing said airplane to crash in the everglades is an accident?

There may be a certain amount of "carelessness" in every accident but for the love of God, please don't lump 3701 in with other accidents where CRM is a factor.

The accidents you cite could have been prevented. But they were not the result of INTENTIONAL disregard for SOP and common sense. That is the difference.

 

[say again]

A vast majority of all accidents, sadly enough, are avoidable. It's a compound of judgement, decision making, and knowledge. Unfortunately, performing poorly in these areas could be disasterous, as proven time and time again. It's not just "new" 2000 hr. pilots making poor decisions, but experienced 10000 hr. pilots as well.

 

[Wasted]

like these other preventable accidents, this current one will be used to teach pilots. my CRM course taught me to be open minded and finding things in ALL accidents that might be used in my flying habits to change myself.

Yeah, like "Don't F**k around."

 

[Simon Says]

There may be a certain amount of "carelessness" in every accident but for the love of God, please don't lump 3701 in with other accidents where CRM is a factor.

The accidents you cite could have been prevented. But they were not the result of INTENTIONAL disregard for SOP and common sense. That is the difference.

Thank you for trying to get my point across. Careless and reckless is not an accident. Just like the guys that get loaded up on dope and go fly an airplane to be only plowing dirt a few minutes afterwards. Is that an accident? No, that is careless and reckless.

I find a contributing cause to this accident to be the Pinnacle's culture. Not the fault of any pilot, but definately an obbstical to be overcome by each and every pilot on the property.

 

[CitationLover]

A vast majority of all accidents, sadly enough, are avoidable. It's a compound of judgement, decision making, and knowledge. Unfortunately, performing poorly in these areas could be disasterous, as proven time and time again. It's not just "new" 2000 hr. pilots making poor decisions, but experienced 10000 hr. pilots as well.

this was my point as well. everyone just dumps on these guys (perhaps rightfully so) and points to them being low time in type and being just "regional" pilots.

in all likelihood (perhaps we will never know), the pulling g's, "horseplay", etc had no bearing on the accident other than to display the lack of common sense this crew had. exceeding a limitation caused this dual flameout and unfortunately it had to end like it did.

as far as this being intentional disregard towelie, i doubt it. my guess is in their minds 410 was the max certified altitude and they thought simply they were empty and could go up there (ie thought only weight was the factor). unfortunately they were wrong. hopefully it will cause a lot of changes in peoples minds about the capabilities of their a/c.

 

[Wasted]

this was my point as well. everyone just dumps on these guys (perhaps rightfully so) and points to them being low time in type and being just "regional" pilots.

in all likelihood (perhaps we will never know), the pulling g's, "horseplay", etc had no bearing on the accident other than to display the lack of common sense this crew had. exceeding a limitation caused this dual flameout and unfortunately it had to end like it did.

as far as this being intentional disregard towelie, i doubt it. my guess is in their minds 410 was the max certified altitude and they thought simply they were empty and could go up there (ie thought only weight was the factor). unfortunately they were wrong. hopefully it will cause a lot of changes in peoples minds about the capabilities of their a/c.

Gimme a break. So you think they unintentionally did not check the performance charts to see whether they were capable at 39K weight of reaching FL410. So the captain unintentionally disregarded guidance on climb profile. So the captain unintentionally switched seats with the FO. So the captain unintentionally went into the galley in the middle of a critical flight regime. Quit making excuses for them. They were running around with scissors and got their eyes poked out. There's no worthwhile CRM lesson here. If this one is ever brought up in CRM class, the most an instructor can say about it is "enough said."

 

[CitationLover]

Gimme a break. So you think they unintentionally did not check the performance charts to see whether they were capable at 39K weight of reaching FL410. So the captain unintentionally disregarded guidance on climb profile. So the captain unintentionally switched seats with the FO. So the captain unintentionally went into the galley in the middle of a critical flight regime. Quit making excuses for them. They were running around with scissors and got their eyes poked out. There's no worthwhile CRM lesson here. If this one is ever brought up in CRM class, the most an instructor can say about it is "enough said."

my point is wasted that it is a "CRM Issue" to talk about f#$%ing a flight attendant with a j/s and forgetting to set the flaps, but what these guys did was unforgiveable? you give me a break dude.

 

[Wasted]

my point is wasted that it is a "CRM Issue" to talk about f#$%ing a flight attendant with a j/s and forgetting to set the flaps, but what these guys did was unforgiveable? you give me a break dude.

Those guys who forgot to set the flaps while talking about f'ing the flight attendant shouldn't be forgiven either. So there, you got your break.

All the so called "CRM" lessons here that you think you see, checking charts, running the right checklists, telling the truth to ATC, staying at your seat in a critical flight situation, etc., are merely symptoms. Symptoms of the main problem that the captain was horsing around and not taking his job seriously, garnished on top with a certain amount of ineptitude. That CRJ was just a big fat toy for him to play with. If there is one CRM lesson here, it is "Don't horse around...dude."

 

[Towelie]

as far as this being intentional disregard towelie, i doubt it. my guess is in their minds 410 was the max certified altitude and they thought simply they were empty and could go up there (ie thought only weight was the factor). unfortunately they were wrong. hopefully it will cause a lot of changes in peoples minds about the capabilities of their a/c.

If there only crime was failure to reference a power chart, I might agree with you. But besides the obvious lack of high altitude knowledge, these morons never once attempted to do ANYTHING by the book.

This not a case of one missed item (forgetting to set the flaps) this was two clowns who were intentionally showboating until they pushed it too far.

You can't honestly say this is just another CRM accident. If you don't realize that, then more Pinnacle pilots are doomed to repeat this same tragedy.

Please pull your head out of the sand. Thank you.

 

[chperplt]

Symptoms of the main problem that the captain was horsing around and not taking his job seriously

Change the word Captain here to crew and I agree with you.. The FO is just as much to blame here as the guy in the left seat.

I didn't read anything in the transcripts that lead me to belive the FO had a problem with anything that they did. Did you hear the FO say "Captain, I'm not comfortable with this" or anything else to fix the situation? Maybe that goes back to the fact that he should still of been in Cessna's and was simply along for the ride.