Pinnacle Pilots: "Just wanted to have fun"

[Ben Franklin]

To sum it up:


DARWIN WAS RIGHT.



Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[Wasted]

Change the word Captain here to crew and I agree with you.. The FO is just as much to blame here as the guy in the left seat.

I did single the Captain out on purpose. I did use the term "they", but changed it to "captain" before posting. The reason is the captain sets the tone. The Captain put the FO into a position that required him to be "assertive". Yes, the FO failed that test. The FO failed to rise to the challenge of overcoming the captain's lack of seriousness and aptitude. But the captain should not have put the FO in that position. I would call the blame 75% captain, 25% first officer.

 

[Wasted]

To sum it up:


DARWIN WAS RIGHT.



Sincerely,

B. Franklin

Agreed. No amount of CRM in this world will save you from idiocy.

 

[chperplt]

Wasted,

I agree with what you're saying..

I guess the problem lies within the training departments of most(all??) regionals in that they do not adequately train FOs how to be assertive. With the advent of the 500 hour wonder kid flying a passenger jet, there is a lack of experience in stepping up to the plate and speaking their minds. These kids haven't much spoken up to mom and dad yet let alone an airline captain.

As much as we train in CRM that the power curve is only slightly tilted toward the captain (In comparison to the old days), we still teach FOs that they are really just FOs and to be careful when speaking up... Maybe that's something the FAA needs to take a look at.

 

[enigma]

This seems like a great time to give Kudos to: Fred Harrington, Jim Kley, and Steve Tillotson.

Fred taught my intial newhire class at MESA in 1990. Jim Kley was my B1300 instructor at Mesa, and Steve taught me how to fly the Brasila.

These people (and other MESA guys whose names I've forgotten) took their job seriously. They went out of their way to ensure that we understood the hazards associated with our kind of flying. That being a lot of flying in and around the mountains. I'm sure that when they became jet instructors, they gave that job the same level of respect and attention.

Thanks Ya'll

Instead of trashing regional training, lets acknowledge those who are good. Not that PCL doesn't need trashing, Lord knows that must be true, I'm just looking for something positive.

enigma



Ya, I know Tilly turned into a Freedumb guy. He was still a good instructor.

 

[freightrash]

.

.....

 

[surplus1]

Borrowed Thoughts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
— Captain A. G. Lamplugh, British Aviation Insurance Group, London. Circa early 1930's



Whenever we talk about a pilot who has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind. He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment. He believed in it so strongly that he knowingly bet his life on it. That his judgment was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity. Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose. — author unknown


This accident is indeed a tragedy for it it clearly did not "happen" but was caused by a crew possessed with alll three of the traits that Lamplugh warns about, carelessness, incapacity and neglect.

I seldom agree with TonyC, buat this time he is right, and so is TIS. The attitude of these pilots is a major factor in the probable cause. The pilot in command (I won't call him Captain for there was none on board that flight) was himself devoid of any semblance of discipline and failed completely the "boy" that shared his cockpit and was his charge.

Whatever the reason, the "culture" of the young men's airline let them down completely and is a major contributing factor in their demise. I have no personal knowledge of the training they obviously did not receive or were permitted to totally ignore. But, the recording makes it quite clear that they were both in an evironement, both before and after the "upset", that was completely beyond their individual or collective scope. Both paid a price too high for this neglect.

God rest their souls

 

[Yank McCobb]

TonyC,

Reference the above post...

See what I mean?

 

[TonyC]

TonyC,

Reference the above post...

See what I mean?

LOL.


I'm not worthy.







.

 

[inthegoo]

Just a thought but,

Sometimes when we have outside pressures like home, kids, money, family, issues going on that are really pressing, some folks might feel a bit reckless at times like this.

Might Jesse have been dealing with some of this? Just a theory? He had 2 young kids, with a third new one soon on the way, a stay at home wife (I think she is stay at home), possible a new mortgage? And other possible unknowns to us, maybe an issue was coming to a boil?

You know, have you ever felt like you were gonna crack? Overwhelmed?

Maybe?

I ask this because, Jesse's actions in the climb with the yankin and pushin are very random and distructive, almost impossible for me to imagine someone doing, unless they were really feeling over the edge about something.

I have spoken with people that knew Jesse and his family and I don't want this to come off wrong, he and his FO are dead and may they rest is pease.

-Goo

 

[Spinn555]

.....

Do you get what you pay for when you hire a pilot?



If the starting salary is under 20K a year and opportunities are limited beyond that; does the quality of people flying up front begin to decline?



Perhaps to the point where you have two howler monkeys sitting up front saying ‘dude, grab a Pepsi and watch this!’ shortly before the airplane careens into the ground.



I think so; and the idea of spending all day in a small box with ‘dudes’ like that was a small factor in my decision to stay out of the airlines

 

[johnny taliban]

my guess is in their minds 410 was the max certified altitude and they thought simply they were empty and could go up there (ie thought only weight was the factor). unfortunately they were wrong. hopefully it will cause a lot of changes in peoples minds about the capabilities of their a/c.

If these guys only took aircraft weight into consideration when deciding to climb to FL410, then neither one of them had any business sitting in that cockpit. Their ignorance of high altitude aerodynamics and of the aircraft's limitations is truly remarkable.

Im really surprised that no one has brought up the OBVIOUS issue of Pinnacle's (or for that matter any regional) hiring minimuns. Let's think about this for a second. Company hires a 500 hour piston pilot to fly an AIRLINER!!! Yeah, that makes alot of sense. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize that with low standards like that an accident is inevitable. How much more ability, knowledge, and experience is required to fly a Boeing 737 than a CRJ? My guess is that its about the same, yet Southwest (or just about anybody else) has much higher minumums then these regionals. You pay a guy food stamps to command an aircraft but expect top notch performance. Somethings wrong with that picture. Quite frankly, Im surprised that an accident like this did not happen sooner. These pilots screwed up but there is a whole lot of blame to go around. The company they worked for as well as the FAA are at fault as well, IMHO. Of course, I could be wrong .

Johnny

 

[Top Gum]

Im really surprised that no one has brought up the OBVIOUS issue of Pinnacle's (or for that matter any regional) hiring minimuns. Let's think about this for a second. Company hires a 500 hour piston pilot to fly an AIRLINER!!! Yeah, that makes alot of sense. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize that with low standards like that an accident is inevitable. How much more ability, knowledge, and experience is required to fly a Boeing 737 than a CRJ? My guess is that its about the same, yet Southwest (or just about anybody else) has much higher minumums then these regionals. You pay a guy food stamps to command an aircraft but expect top notch performance.

I understand your concerns about low minimums, low pay, and quality people but I don’t know of anyone getting hired at Pinnacle with only 500 hours unless they are being promoted from within the company.

The current minimums at Pinnacle are 1000 total and 200 multi.
· Average age in my class 32.
· Average hours 3,000

I know that the pay is terrible but I can assure you that the low pay has not stopped the new hires from trying to be professionals at operating the CRJ.

 

[NoBathroom]

I understand your concerns about low minimums, low pay, and quality people but I don’t know of anyone getting hired at Pinnacle with only 500 hours unless they are being promoted from within the company.

You obviously don't know your company well, then. There were many pilots hired with only 500 hours (250 of them in the BE-1900) in the past few years.

 

[Ty Webb]

The unrelenting level of immaturity revealed here is nothing short of shocking.


Training is never perfect. And yes, this airline's training prior to the accident regarding high altitude flight obviously sucked....they depended on their pilots sticking to flight plans, thereby operating well-within the aerodynamic womb...not on the fringe, and they didn't sufficiently stress the dangers of going outside it. But it remains that if the crew had stuck to, or even marginally adhered to the plan, it wouldn't have happened. And like someone else has mentioned, for lack company training neither pilot reflected a self-education of knowledge (that even if the company didn't provide it) is very basic to flying jet aircraft at high-altitudes and is readily available from many sources. Educating yourself to a higher degree than what any company can spoon-feed you is part of what proffessionals do, and i make no apologies for saying that if you're getting paid to captain a jet you better know this basic %@#@.

Everyone can make mistakes, and everyone does. Everyone has lapses in judgement, but usually singular and temporary. This whole event, on the other hand, is a friggin' showcase of immaturity from the get-go. This is the kind of thing only peer pressure can solve. .

Well, I often disagree with CatYaak, but I agree with him on every point in his post (which I edited above for brevity).

An excellent book, "Redefining Airmanship" lists some of the basic tenents of Airmanship . . . training, discipline, knowlege being three of them, all of which are missing in this unfortunate display.