Pinnacle PIC Time

[TinGoose1]

When two pilots are typed in the aircraft the release must stipulate who the PIC will be. The person signing for the aircraft is the PIC......period.

 

[liv'n_on_credit]

Pinnacle is flat out wrong on their interpretation of the regs.

It's not Pinnacle that says that, it's our FSDO in Memphis. Mgmt is on the side of the Gulfstream guys, saying that they should not have to go out and get the 250 PIC...saying that all their CRJ time in the right seat is good enough, and should count as PIC when they were the sole manipultor. But the letter that came back from the FSDO said they want a firm 250 PIC, none of which can be from the right seat of a CRJ.

It's kind of a controversal subject at Pinnacle right now.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

And the way it should be. Pinnacle shouldn't get a separate set of rules while the rest of us are being held to the fire. Fair is fair.

 

[Simon Says]

Have you been to Pinnacle? Don't talk crap about flagship if you havent been here!!

You are an idiot. You are one of the guys that make 9E look bad.

Too bad you cannot learn from example. Take a look at Rook.

 

[capt_zman]

In all seriousness, what are the mins to upgrade? Call me naive, but I find it hard to believe that a dude has to go rent a 152/172 to get his 250 hrs of PIC, and then he can be a captain at a 121 airline.


If true, what was that person flying before getting on at the airline?

 

[Workin'Stiff]

It's called going straight from training to PFT and right seat in a 1900. All of it with bare minimum PIC experience. And the FAA should hold their ground on this issue. If 9E gets relief from this regulation by means of an exemption, it will do absolutely nothing to enhance safety.

 

[idratherfly4283]

PFT is the root of all evil

 

[capt_zman]

What kind of total time, ME time do these guys have?

 

[schmitty340]

NOTHING !!!! thats the problem.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Couldn't tell ya exactly. Maybe Rook or PCL_128 could fill us in...

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Have you been to Pinnacle? Don't talk crap about flagship if you havent been here!!

Ohh I thought yall were saying fagship! My mistake. Yall talk so fast over the radio

 

[Rook]

You are an idiot. You are one of the guys that make 9E look bad.

Too bad you cannot learn from example. Take a look at Rook.

Yawwwwwwwn...did I miss something Simon?

I gotta admit I was a little biased when the whole GIA thing started way back when. After flying with some of these guys and gals I can say that on the whole they are really sharp. A lot of them are my good friends now and it sucks that they may be stuck in the right seat a lot longer than they anticipated. With that being said I can't argue with the rules. Is it fair? Maybe. Maybe not. But a lot of us that didn't come up the military route had to do what we could to get the required time. A lot of folks on this board have already given their advice on what to do in this situation so I won't backtrack to that. This is a sensitive issue. I compare it to when we were hiring street captains. Three guys in my initial class were hired as captains, and all 3 had boeing PIC experience. All great guys who adapted to the training environment(LOL) and had no trouble being captains because they had already demonstrated their ability at prior airlines. Now we have a lot of guys getting hired as captains and hating the fact that they are being screwed blued and tattooed on reserve. And it will be that way for a while as the red bus is coming to a screeching halt and senior F/O's will be upgrading and pushing these guys farther down the list. Who deserves to be a captain more?
1. The F/O who's been here forever with the TT but not enough PIC?

2. The street guy who has no PIC 121 experience?

3. The street guy with prior 121?

4. The F/O with the time to upgrade.

Everyone knows that 9E has been under a magnifying glass because of our recent problems. Don't lump everyone under the banner that all of us here have our heads up our arses. Though it may seem like that sometimes. I do hope that those guys that are in this situation, will do what they can (legally)to get the time required because a lot of these F/O's will be good captains.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

PFT is the root of all evil

Agreed! I miss running into the stupid PFT dorks while I was at my last job

 

[Rook]

Ohh I thought yall were saying fagship! My mistake. Yall talk so fast over the radio

Apparently you haven't flown out of MEM have ya?

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Best post I've read in a long time. Good point Rook...

 

[Rook]

In all seriousness, what are the mins to upgrade? Call me naive, but I find it hard to believe that a dude has to go rent a 152/172 to get his 250 hrs of PIC, and then he can be a captain at a 121 airline.


If true, what was that person flying before getting on at the airline?

Believe it zman. I know guys that interviewed here and were told that due to their low total/multi time, if they could get the required time they'd have a seat in the next class. So these guys went out and got more Duchess/Seminole/S.E. time, and next thing you know, they were in class.

 

[capt_zman]

scary.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I'm surprised the FSDO won't allow the right-seat time. FAR 61.163 says that the 250 PIC can be comprised, in part or whole, of SIC time under the supervision of a PIC. Here's the quote:

§ 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.


The regional that I used to fly for had a form that would allow a PIC to endorse an SIC's time for the purpose of meeting that reg. So it doesn't sound like Pinnacle is trying to get any special consideration, rather they are trying to get the FSDO to correctly intrepret the existing FAR.

 

[Godvek]

I still don't understand how you can log PIC time from the right seat if you are typed. No completition of IOE, no signoff, etc. Unless it is a 91 ferry, 121 regs apply, and since I am sure the GOM states the difference between PIC and SIC, you have to go with that. It is an FAA document and you take the more conservative of the two.

 

[Rook]

scary.

I know man I know. I used to think that if anyone can get through a 121 training environment, then they deserve to be where they are. After 3701 and the MKE accident/incident, I have to believe that that is not always the case. Whether one is flying a Baron single pilot 135, an SF3, Beech 1900, or and MD-11, there needs to be a certain amount of real-world experience before someone can sign their name on that dotted line that yes they do understand that they are responsible for what goes on inside that aircraft. Now with that being said...

I think that airlines that offer direct new-hire programs is a good thing. As long as the candidate demonstrates satisfactory performance in a thorough screening process. It's been going on in Europe and Asia for years without too many problems. It's easy to tell a lot of these guys to go out and get more experience but with the regional airlines hurting for folks, and with interview times going down to 600/100, what kind of experience do you think you're going to see at the interview? I was CFI'ng when I hit 1000/100 and couldn't get XJ to even flip me off when I started sending out my apps. So I went the freight route and was glad I did because it made me aware of what elements are out there that could kill you and kept me grounded that you can't base judgement on someone because of the aircraft they fly. By the same token, if I was lucky enough to have gotten hired by an airline back then, I'd assume the role of F/O without a clue and pay attention to all of the Captains I flew with, pick their brains, and put whatever I learn from the good Captains into my own bag of knowledge(a small bag at that). CFI'ng builds character and patience. Flying FR8 teaches you sphincter/bladder control when the radar is saying "you shoulda stayed in bed" flying T-props is hard,but rewarding and flying jets is a joy as long as you stay ahead of the game. We do the same thing at the regionals that they do at the majors. Our job is to transport pax safely.(for you UPS/Fedex guys just insert 'yourselves') The job of Captain is that much tougher because you have to live with the decision you make whether it is the wrong one or the right one. The company doesn't teach you that. That's something you have to learn on your own. Okay you guys just ignore that violin player and I'll get off the soapbox.