Pinnacle NTSB Update

[Gulfstream 200]

Are you saying that the same antics don't occur in the corporate/charter world? At the major airline level? Military?

I've certainly heard and read some stories that makes one shake their head in disgust as well. Want to hear about the time my friend was in the jumpseat of a CAL 757 out of LAS and had to remind the FO to set takeoff flaps while they took the runway (checklist was already complete). Or what about the time my buddy was SIC in a Westwind and the Captain ran low on gas, overflew several airports (refusing to stop for fuel), and landed with less than 30 minutes in the tanks (they were ferrying the plane, no pax)?

-Neal

What antics are you refering to?

The ones where you set IAS or FLC mode , whip out the USA Today, and giggle as the shaker goes off?....gee thats really funny!!

or maybe hold it off the runway until the shaker goes off to get a "smooth landing"?

Nobody at the corporation I fly at would ever dream of doing this type of bull$hit - and YES, would surely get rightfully fired if it ever happened.

but $hit, I guess you get what you pay for , eh?



This thread is not about comparing regional pilots to corp pilots or major pilots - its about retards who have no place flying pax in a jet!!

 

[Brett Hull]

What antics are you refering to?

The ones where you set IAS or FLC mode , whip out the USA Today, and giggle as the shaker goes off?....gee thats really funny!!

or maybe hold it off the runway until the shaker goes off to get a "smooth landing"?

Nobody at the corporation I fly at would ever dream of doing this type of bull$hit - and YES, would surely get rightfully fired if it ever happened.

but $hit, I guess you get what you pay for , eh?

I'm going to make sure my boss reads this thread, especially the posts G-200 has referenced above, and request that he goes to our Chairman and CEO and attempt to make it a corporate policy for our senior management team to NEVER ride on an airliner, especially a regional, again.

If this thread doesn't make his case, I don't know what will.

 

[Lear70]

If pilots can't control AOA, we're in big trouble (in general, NOT to this specific thread title). If the critical AOA was exceeded, how would it be reduced? Pitch control...

That's about the only thing you said in this posting that's correct. Difference is, the autopilot doesn't intrinsically KNOW to reduce the pitch if the speed bleeds off.

When you use PTCH mode in the CRJ, (I know no other jet) you are setting a specific AOA. This AOA is maintained all the up to the max weight altitude the aircraft can maintain. In addition, this AOA is less than critical so the aircraft will never stall. It may stop climbing, or even settle (decend) but the wing won't stall. That is the beauty of it. Set the PTCH or AOA and work on your monthly bid....

JUST DEAD WRONG. You are NOT setting an Angle Of Attack. If anyone that doesn't understand swept-wing aerodynamics is reading this, DO NOT LISTEN TO WHAT THIS PERSON JUST SAID!

Your AOA is dependent on several factors, ONE of which is Pitch, but your aircraft's Relative Airspeed, bank angle, and other factors all play a role in determining AOA. This is why pitch mode will NOT work unmonitored, or at least not without finding out where the shaker limit is at (or where the aircraft is trimmed to when the autopilot kicks off with the shaker).

If you set the aircraft for a 7 degree nose-up pitch climbing through 10,000 feet and "sat back and did your monthly bids", somewhere climbing through about FL 25,0 the shaker would go off. Why? VMD, otherwise known as L/D Max or Minimum Drag speed or, more simply, the speed below which induced drag increases faster than induced lift. As your "fixed pitch" remains the same, total thrust decreases as altitude increases (thinner air), and airspeed resultantly decays, you eventually wind up "behind the curve" or a speed less than VMD. Pitch mode keeps trying to hold 7 degrees and all the while your airspeed just keeps bleeding off and even though you start descending, that pitch is just too high to keep the airspeed from decaying to the point of stall.

Pitch mode has its uses, but ceasing to monitor your aircraft while left in ANY mode is nearly criminally negligent. And there are several other corporate aircraft that have pitch mode as an option, I used to fly the Lear 31 that way, set it about 2 deg and leave it alone unless the aircraft ran out of energy, but I sure as hell didn't just "sit back and read my paper".

I agree with G200 and others, some of the people out there are scary, and whenever my family rides on one of our aircraft, I ALWAYS find out who's flying the trip and rebook them if necessary - there are a handful of pilots I don't trust with my family and I don't blame others who feel that way one little bit.

 

[efiscompmon]

there are a handful of pilots I don't trust with my family and I don't blame others who feel that way one little bit

Glad I'm not the only one.

One of the nice things about being trained in Canada was the opportunity to score a full set of manuals--not the pablum from FSI and David White written in a vacuum and updated occasionally.

Bombardier Pilot Training Manual, p2-26
Automatic Flight Controls System (sic)
Pitch Mode
"Pitch mode will maintain the pitch angle sensed at the time of autopilot engagement."

Bombardier Flight Crew Operating Manual, Volume 1 p04-10-8
Automatic Flight Control System
Description
Vertical Modes of Operation
Pitch Mode
"When pitch mode is selected, the pitch reference (pitch command on the PFD) is set to the current pitch angle. Pitch mode generated commands to maintain the pitch reference value."

Sweet Jesus people, are some of you out there thinking this thing controls AOA? I know our training is for sh!t but this should get an airman pulled off line for remedial training. You will spank yourself and everyone aboard someday if you do not understand the AFCS system and all of its modes.

Some of the comments on this thread have me wondering if people really understand what AOA is and how it applies to flight in any airplane.

I'm going to make sure my boss reads this thread

I thought it should be forwarded to the NTSB and the FAA as part of a self-disclosure! Unbelievable.

Well this is the airline that believes the AP should be engaged from 400' up to 80' down. If you don't have enough pride in your craft to build your manual skills every day, fine. But you could at least pay attention during the climb! It's not a freaking elevator. I know that MSP-RIC, MSP-TUS can be long and boring but you can "relax" when you are established in cruise flight. Above VMD. After checking the OAT and winds against the flight plan. After making sure there isn't a pile of sh!t on top of your oxygen mask. After mentallt reviewing what you would do if you DID get the shaker (hint--it's not the stall recovery from the FCOM!)

While I'm on the subject of oxygen, this happened last week:

*** pulled his mask today and the inflatable octopus was tied in a manner that seemed like somebody's sick joke, They took the tubes and twisted them over and over until they retracted themselves into the full faced mask, and after, they jammed the knot they made into the little hook that is inside the mask, it took us (both doing it) about a good minute to get it untied, need oxygen in a hurry? Tough!

Someone needs to be violated and fired. Then taken to jail where they can be violated again. If something had happened you would have murdered an entire planeload of people with your little game. May the Lord Bhudda grace you with wisdom. Soon. Or at least some fast shoes if this marine ever finds out who you are.

All in a day at Pinnacle. Now hiring!

 

[100LL... Again!]

This is the state of the profession. We have too many barely competent pilots buying their way into cockpits.

Disgraceful. Failure to correctly understand the autpilot has killed more than a few people.

From the responses on this board, I am concerned that the carnage is not yet over.

Does the all-autopilot-all-the-time philosophy come from the fact that there are so many gulfstream trainees at the controls? That would make sense.

No slam on all the fine folks at pinnacle - I know quite a few. Too bad you're saddled with the gulfstreamers.

 

[PCL_128]

This is the state of the profession. We have too many barely competent pilots buying their way into cockpits.

Sorry, but that is not the problem. I know you think PFT is cause of all problems in aviation, but it just isn't true.

I just talked to our Safety Committee chairman last week about some of this. He said that 90% of our pilots that have been interviewed by the NTSB this last month couldn't answer basic questions about performance, high altitude ops, SOPs, etc... Were these all PFTers? Nope. Lots of freight dogs, CFIs, and 121 guys from previous airlines were in there too.

The truth is that PFT has little to nothing to do with aviation safety. Even Bobbysamd admits that. If you want to talk about PFT hurting the profession, then that is certainly a debatable point. However, saying that PFTers are more dangerous than other pilots is just ridiculous and unfounded.

If you want to address the real problem here, you need to look at the training departments at the regionals. You need to look at the kinds of pilots that are being hired (example: is HR hiring the pilots that do best on the technical interview and sim ride, or the ones that check off the most boxes on their "diversity" checklist?). There are lots of real problems with safety, but PFT isn't one of them.

 

[efiscompmon]

Does the all-autopilot-all-the-time philosophy come from the fact that there are so many gulfstream trainees at the controls

No this was policy from 2000 when they first arrived--and our "senior captains" were afraid to fly them by hand--being all "squirrelly" and "so fast". Although most of the top 200 on the seniority were pay for jobbers in the 1990's--that didn't stop (ok, it has never stopped, just waived for 1500/500) until late fall 1999.

I don't have anything against Gulfstreamers any more than I think I should appologize to a kid from the ghetto for the opportunitues I had getting this far. What I DO have a problem with is management thinking that 500 hours and a proficiency check makes an experienced professional pilot.

In fairness: PCL (especially Flight ops) didn't want them--NWA struck a deal with their managing dirtbag to releave the pressure on his pilot farm (and generate more revenue) in exchange for renegotiation the terms of the codeshare with his airline (more favorable to NWA). The Chief Pilot already thinks that the minimums are far too low--he has said on many occasions that he wouldn't hire anyone below 2000 and no one should upgrade below 5000--but market forces are what they are. Can you imagine a 2000 hour PFTer? What a peach that guy would be!

The problem is now we have them. We thought (unfairly in some cases) that they were sub-par. So did we make an effort to train them? To bring them up to standards? NO! We cut sim sessions because they (and NWA furloughees) are all prior 121! Just as a pagan who has never heard of God is not condemned to he!!, neither is a pilot promoted beyond their level of competence to be held fully accountable. It's not their fault the company doesn't care enough to make them safe(r). My mom (65 and a bad driver) can and has landed the sim out of an ILS. I would think a 500 hour pilot can do a little better in a checkride...and still prove as much.

-------
While I was writing this I got a message from a dispatcher regarding our new fuel policy.

Apparently the company is threatening dispatchers with discipline for dispatching outside the "guidlelines" of the new fuel bulletin.

121.533(c)(3). Read it people. You may have to use it.

If they dispatch you "paper legal" and the "Doody Daddy" won't back your play--take the flight. Divert. Fill out a NASA form. Self disclose to the POI. Call the whistleblowers hotline. Call your status rep.

A half-dozen FWA-MSP with a top-off in RST will get things corrected in short order. Especially with the accompanying paperwork. Remember: crew coms go to and stop at flight ops. Flight Safety Reports go to the Feds.

Be careful up there.

 

[efiscompmon]

PCL_128 said it faster and more succinctly! The worst offenders here (on the seniority list, at least) are the Saab crowd. Can't/won't be told anything that contradicts their 10,000+ hours of turboprop experience.

And I tend to agree with the last paragraph as well.

efiscompmon
Native American since 1999!

 

[xjcaptain]

PCL-128, while I agree that some airline training programs are not optimum I think that instead of looking at the company for answers, many should try looking in the mirror. Everybody can't be spoon-fed EVERYTHING that is needed to make a safe and competant pilot. Ask questions, do research, it's O.K. to actually take some self responsibility and fill in the gaps on your own.

All the info is out there if you want to look. Jet's and high altitude operations are not that mysterious, people have been doing it for a long time. Just because your company hasn't told you everything doesnt mean that you don't need to know it. If they thought that their training programs were all inclusive they would hire "0" time pilots and do an ab-initio program.

Don't forget that as a professional pilot there is a lot of personal effort and responsibility that goes into the job other than just showing up on time. As shocking as it may be for some, this means studying and researching on your own time and not being compensated by the company for every second of effort. It's in your own best interest, and if some are not willing to put the effort forth, they should get out of the industry before they kill themselves, or worse yet, somebody's unsuspecting family that's riding in the back. There is more to being a "professional pilot" than collecting a paycheck.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Amen.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sorry, but that is not the problem. I know you think PFT is cause of all problems in aviation, but it just isn't true.

I just talked to our Safety Committee chairman last week about some of this. He said that 90% of our pilots that have been interviewed by the NTSB this last month couldn't answer basic questions about performance, high altitude ops, SOPs, etc... Were these all PFTers? Nope. Lots of freight dogs, CFIs, and 121 guys from previous airlines were in there too.

The truth is that PFT has little to nothing to do with aviation safety. Even Bobbysamd admits that. If you want to talk about PFT hurting the profession, then that is certainly a debatable point. However, saying that PFTers are more dangerous than other pilots is just ridiculous and unfounded.

If you want to address the real problem here, you need to look at the training departments at the regionals. You need to look at the kinds of pilots that are being hired (example: is HR hiring the pilots that do best on the technical interview and sim ride, or the ones that check off the most boxes on their "diversity" checklist?). There are lots of real problems with safety, but PFT isn't one of them.

While PFT might not be the only thing to blame, it certainly says something about the quality of the pilot.

A certain level of pilot will work for free/practically nothing.

You get what you pay for folks.

PFT is many times the only way for the desperate / underqualified pilot.


Whatever...its a dead arguement here...but...who you want flying YOUR family??

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Don't forget that as a professional pilot there is a lot of personal effort and responsibility that goes into the job other than just showing up on time. As shocking as it may be for some, this means studying and researching on your own time and not being compensated by the company for every second of effort. It's in your own best interest, and if some are not willing to put the effort forth, they should get out of the industry before they kill themselves, or worse yet, somebody's unsuspecting family that's riding in the back. There is more to being a "professional pilot" than collecting a paycheck.[/QUOTE]


very well put.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Are PFT'ers the main problem? Not necessarily, I just maintain that they are the most visible part of it.

Quote:
I just talked to our Safety Committee chairman last week about some of this. He said that 90% of our pilots that have been interviewed by the NTSB this last month couldn't answer basic questions about performance, high altitude ops, SOPs, etc... Were these all PFTers? Nope. Lots of freight dogs, CFIs, and 121 guys from previous airlines were in there too.

Then why are they allowed to fly airplanes? I'd say 90% of our folks were the opposite. Perhaps the PFT culture breeds that level of indifference to quality in many who join the organization.

Maybe the company bears some blame here for incomplete training, but where is the initiative to learn on your own? Missing, apparently.

If you want to take the attitude that if it is not covered in ground school then you don't need to know it, might I suggest that you never compare yourself to a doctor or lawyer ever again. I would compare you to a factory worker whose union will always blame a worker's incompetence or ignorance on inadequate 'training'.

Way to get management on board at contract time!

Lots of regional pilots expend a lot of energy screaming for a better contract so that they get what they "deserve", and have their "professionalism" properly compensated.

Perhaps a little more attention to quality of airmanship and knowledge would make them more deserving of the financial recognition which seems to be their main obsession.

What was rez-o-lution's quote about the pain of poor quality and the thrill of a cheap price? It seems to be very relevant in this case.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Gulfstream 200 nails it again.

If I hear one more 500hr trainee whine that they 'pass the same checkride', I'm going to scream, then try to reach through the computer and slap them into unconsciousness.

 

[CRJDog]

nvm..